The DijonStock Digital Home Recording Support Forum

Well first let me introduce myself. I'm Arjen, just like Robbie i'm from the Netherlands. I'm 25 years old, and currently working in the childrens/adolesence psychiatry.
As a bassplayer I join a dutch forum where Robbie convinced me to buy a Yamaha, and because I tend to listen very well to older people I did purchase a Yamaha AW1600.
I own it now for almost 9 months and still very pleased with the results. I've recorded our latest demotracks on the machine, but there is a problem when recording vocals, they sound thin and seem to lack power. Where I'm pleased with the drumsounds, so i figured for vocals I might need a preamp or a nice mic. Because of the AW1600, a Hughes and Kettner Quad el34, a set of Rode nt5's and a Takamine ac.guitar, my budget is limited.

My question: to upgrade my sound will I better buy a Mic or a preamp? The Mic i'm using now is a MXL 990, better known as just a really cheap mic. I hope you could give me some advise on this one.

I have an MXL 990, which I have used and been pleased with. I have other mics now to do vocal with, but still reach for the MXL now and again. Your Rhodes mic should be doing the job for you. perhaps a pre is what you could use, but i would advise first learning about the advantages (and pitfalls) of compressing your vocal signal at the mixing stage, and perhaps on the way in too, depending on your vocal style. There are several places in the chain to set attenuation levels to achieve a usable signal. Don't spend a lot of money before you know what the compressors can do to balance things up.

A relatively inexpensive ART tube premight be aplace to start, after you have educated yourself in the use of the compressors.

My two cents.

Welcome aboard Arjen!

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Byron

Hi Arjen, welcome to the forum.

You have a couple of mics, so I'd definitely spend the available budget on a decent preamp.

I've had fair results recording without a preamp using Rode NT1a and NT1000 mics, but a preamp will give you so much more flexibility!

Oh and another thing. What coffee is on the bass guitar forum, is cheese on the dijonstock forum. Glad to have you aboard.

Milk? Sugar?

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

Wow thats pretty quick responding. Maybe the preamp will be a better choice indeed. I also think that a preamp will be a good investment even when I would buy another mic later on.

I think I'll be checking out preamps the next few days.

@byron: I'm using compression on vocals, I might need some practise.
The first results are posted on our myspace: Veruna
In a few weeks we will record our definitive demomaterial. Our rehearsalroom will be ready by then and gives us more time to check different sounds. These songs are recorded in 3 hours, so the quality suffers IMO.

@Robbie: I like milk and suger on my cheese? Maybe cheese in my coffee? Will you provide cheese on the next Dijonstock?

Thanks for the help so far!

I could provide you with a cheesy cup of coffee.

I'll check out your myspace files shortly.

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

You are right - the vocals sound very thin in relation to your other tracks. This is IMO first and formost a mixing issue. I think you need to slide the other tracks down until the vocal is sitting well against them. Keep the red stereo fader all the way up. Your instrument track's faders may be well down from where they sat during tracking. watch the meters in POST at this stage. But just for reference first look at the meters in PRE for a moment during play back, for a reference re: relative signal strengths (the physical position of the fader has no effect on the meter in PRE mode). If your vocal track is weak compared to the rest, go back to POST mode on the TRACK meter page, turn the others down somewhat and turn your attention to the DYN (compressor settings) for the vocal track. Put the vocal fader to Unity (0:00) gain. make sure the DYN for the vocal track is turned ON, Call up one of the DYN vocal presets and dial up the Makeup Gain setting as a start. You should hear your vocal rise in the mix as you do this. (I guess you may well want to turn any DYN compressors you have running on the other tracks OFF for the time being, while you fool with the vocal track.) You will want to watch that you don't turn the voacl up so much that it clips OVER on the meter (in POST remember). If the vocal is still weak, turn down the other tracks, until you hear something resembling the balance you wish to achieve. If the stereo meters are showing really low, but the balance is good you can work with the mix, but the inverse is not true. Once you get a good balance, if your listening system is not loud enough, turn it up rather than sliding the tracks up to make it louder. It is better to have a quiet, well balanced mix. You can achieve more volume via the DYN setting on the STEREO channel or with other software, once you have achieved your well balance mix.

A pre would certainly help with the tracking, but you should be able to get enough gain with your Rhodes and the internal pres to achieve the balance I've spoken of. The internal pres might have to be dialed up, and the major complaint then becomes some hiss in the final section of travel on the dial- an external pre will help avoid this - but the slight hiss is not so bad as to make things horrible horrible - at least during this part of the learning curve.

Hope you get it - your tracks were interesting - but you are right on - you have to get the vocal boosted

Hope this helps - lots of free advice here - almost all of it from graduates of the schools of "Hard Knocks" and "Trial and Error".

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Byron

Trial and error is a great teacher. I've been tutored by it many times.

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

A good preamp can make most any mic sound good. Get the preamp and learn how to use it. The art MPA gold is quite affordable , has real tubes , very adjustable.

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THE MUSIC IS DOWN IN HERE
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Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.

Thanks Byron for your detailed advise. I'll have to read it again when I'm next to the machine, but I'll for sure try what you're saying.

The presettings on these machine can't be programmed and replayed at the same time? Like when I want a preset comp on kickdrum and at the same time an vocalsetting? What I do now is set every channel by hand, but it's pretty hard to do on intuition.

I've been looking at the ART MPA Gold. In Europe we have to pay about twice as much for this Preamp in comparison to the prices in the US.

I've noticed the same about prices.

According to the list, one would need $ 1,40 for a euro. Comparing prices it's the other way around.

You can store settings in a scene. Once a mix is as you want, press the scene button, choose an empty slot and save the scene. Don't forget to save the song immediately afterwards. Whatever you do later, recalling the scene will put all settings back as they were when you saved it. I don't think you can copy a setting of track 1 to track 2. So you'll have to do that by hand.

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

Hi Arjen,

welcome neighbour. I am living in germany, but I dont want to flood Holland because of my friend Robbie .

What mrskygod said, try the ART MPA Gold. I bought it when asking for a pre and get his recommendation in this forum. Its a great flexible warm sounding tube preamp (I am a tube lover ) and you have 2 channels, great for stereo recordings.

Andreas

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Blues aint nothing but the blues!

What was the price tag, Andreas?

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

I had paid 498 Euro at "Thomann"!

Andreas

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Blues aint nothing but the blues!

It's now around 450 in dutch web shops. A lot of money, but if it sounds as good as it looks...

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

If you want, the preamp sounds neutral or warm with tube character. And if you have a noisy microphone or want to record a quietly instrument (acoustic guitar), you will have less hiss with raised preamp than with the AW (what does NOT mean, that the AWs preamp are bad!).

Andreas

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Blues aint nothing but the blues!

Those prices are pretty high overhere. But even then I think it will be a good investment. Maybe Ebay will help here, although I'm not keen about buying secondhand equipment.

I haven't been able to try the 'new' way of mixing vocals as explained by Byron. This week i'm working late a lot, so this will have to wait at least until thursday...

I thought German webstores would be cheaper. But lately I see prices on some brands even higher than in Holland. Like Musicman Stingray basses. But products like Fender are relatively cheaper at Thomann or Musicstore. Rode mics are also more expensive in Germany.

I've tried Byron's method. And I quickly concluded that it's a great method, but I also found out that the signal just isn't great.

We recorded it on a pretty short timeline, and the rehearselroom is a very dry an dead sounding room. Normally during exercising this is nice, because our volume levels are low, and defenition is high. But for recording vocals the room may be just to dry.
I listened to another recording we did earlier, same singer, same mic and signalflow.But it was recorded in my home recording room, much better results. So I think the lesson here is that I should be more aware of the acoustic/sonic quality of the room. And with Byron's method it should work.

I'll post the better results soon.

Great advise ! A compressor is absolutely necessary with vocals..(Pre-recording)

http://www.musicstore.de/is-bin/INTERSH ... wScUXMpEc=

In the German Musicstore you can buy the mentioned device for 439 euro and they don't charge transport at these prices. (depends on where it has to go of course).

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In a minute it might be gone. Life is a bear in a bubble.

http://www.soundclick.com/bearinabubble

Seriously dude. Try before you spend that amount of money if at all possible.

You can buy the ART for 439e
http://www.thomann.de/nl/art_mpa_gold.htm

or the SPL Goldmike for the same price!!!!
http://www.thomann.de/nl/spl_goldmike_9844.htm

I tested both before buying and couldnt beleive the difference. 439e is way to expensive for the ART and the steal of the century for the SPL. Just google and read the reviews and you will start seeing the difference in peoples satisfaction / dissatisfaction with the 2 units. After trying them I couldnt agree more (sorry guys that forked out for the ART!)