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 Post subject: What a pain!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:00 am 
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Tinhorn
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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I was recording some acoustic today on my AW1600. Ran into a slight problem... quite annoying....

I plugged in my mic, set the the input channel gain to full so it was on (mic) for the fullest sound. And then placed the mic around 12fret, 1.5 feet away or so... strummed to check my levels and at my "average" strum, i heard it clip. (stereo meter went way over 0db aswell, as for the channel level it didn't)

So i moved BACK a little bit (which added more room ambience) and reduced the volume, "slightly". I didn't like the outcome or sound...

So i moved IN CLOSER, however this time I added some compression from the dynamics library. Set a ratio of 2.5:1, fast attack, and longer release, knee 5 (whatever that means.. :oops: ) And then tried again. It sounded better, in terms of not clipping, but i didn't like the "compressed sound" ( i want my acoustic to breathe)

What do you guys do to record your acoustic guitars on the yammie? #-o

Also, before any of you guys tell me to turn down the preamp gain, i've tried that and to be honest it sounds like crap! The condenser sounds the best when its fully turned up.


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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:57 am 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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If it sounds like crap after turning the preamp down, it probably sounds like crap when the sounds hit the microphone. I'd say it has to do with the room you're recording in. If I record a vocal in my untreated studio it sounds horrible also.

On the other hand, it could be anything - experimenting is probably the way to go.

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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:14 am 
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Tinhorn
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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I don't think its the room, cause when the mic is turned all the way up the condenser "changes" i can't put it into words. But it picks up "EVERYTHING" and if i turn it down, it doesn't. Sounds dull.

What do you think i should do? just experiment with distance/direction, or compression?

Currently i have the mic facing me in terms of "width of room" maybe if i face the room "length" wise, it would change the sound. However thats not the problem, the problem is with the "clipping".
Should i turn down the preamp, and strum my guitar the hardest without it clipping? or turn it down and add compression. I can see why they say recording acous. guitar is a pain :P


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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:56 am 
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Former Computer Geek
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Hi,
Give this a try if you have time.... If your guitar is sounding good to your ears, put the mic where your ears are. Put another mic very gently in front of the guitar where it sounds best... pan them a little bit to each side, one wet and one dry and poof, you'll probably do better. Lemme know how that works if you try it. I do that and it can work out very nice sometimes...sometimes not. LOL....

-= Beer

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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:47 am 
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Mr. Blues
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Hi cheeseandbury,

cheeserandyburg wrote:
I was recording some acoustic today on my AW1600. Ran into a slight problem... quite annoying....

I plugged in my mic, set the the input channel gain to full so it was on (mic) for the fullest sound. And then placed the mic around 12fret, 1.5 feet away or so... strummed to check my levels and at my "average" strum, i heard it clip. (stereo meter went way over 0db aswell, as for the channel level it didn't)

So i moved BACK a little bit (which added more room ambience) and reduced the volume, "slightly". I didn't like the outcome or sound...

So i moved IN CLOSER, however this time I added some compression from the dynamics library. Set a ratio of 2.5:1, fast attack, and longer release, knee 5 (whatever that means.. :oops: ) And then tried again. It sounded better, in terms of not clipping, but i didn't like the "compressed sound" ( i want my acoustic to breathe)


Not easy, here are my thoughts:
1. 1.5 feet away and placed to the 12th fret the sound was good! Ok, seems to be the sweet spot to get the best sound from your guitar. Problem: Clipping, so you have to reduce the gain of the input.
2. You moved away. Now 2 things happened. You got more ambienece from the room, sometimes not bad, sometimes really bad within a not well treated room. But the main thing, if you moved back, you not only get the guitar sound from the 12th fret position, you also get the sound coming from the soundhole of the guitar. The soundhole position sounds boomy and awful. I am mostly playing a Taylor 214 (Grand Auditorium) which has a crisp sound and not a lot of bass, but miced near the soundhole it sounds awful and boomy, too. A dreadnought guitar has a lot more bass and will sound more boomy miced from the sound hole. If you want to mike your guitar with only one mike, you can try to position the mic more near to the bridge or/and turn the mic, so that the membran is off axxis away from the soundhole.

Thats the way I recorded my old Yamaha Dreadnought guitar. You have to experiment with mic position a lot to get the sound you want. And as more sound you get from the soundhole the more boomy it will be! Try different guitars, if you can. Sometimes a cheap guitar will sound really good miked. Also you can try to use different mics.

Good luck
Andreas

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 Post subject: What a pain!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:08 pm 
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The General

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cheeserandyburg wrote:
I don't think its the room, cause when the mic is turned all the way up the condenser "changes" i can't put it into words. But it picks up "EVERYTHING" and if i turn it down, it doesn't. Sounds dull.

What do you think i should do?


What you are hearing when you crank the gain on the preamp is the mic "opening up". Different mics like different amounts of gain to hit their sweet spot. Same thing with preamps.

One thing for sure is you can't keep the gain wide open if the input signal is clipping. Experiment with the following:

- change the mic position and angle. For a brighter acoustic sound point the mic away from the sound hole and/or move it further up the neck.

- Do you have new strings on the acoustic? If not, that can make a huge difference.

- Tell us about the room? Carpeted floor? Couches? Curtains? Big overstuffed easy chairs? All of that lends to a dull sound. I try to record acoustic guitars in my downstairs family room which has hardwood floors and is quasi-octagonal in shape. The room is very live and bright.

- Do you have access to an in-line pad (signal attenuator)? This is hit or miss, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I dunno, just a few suggestions to try.

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:29 am 
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Tinhorn
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Location: Ontario, Canada
Favourite food: I like Pasta!
Machine type: AW1600
Wow, so many great ideas, and tips. Thanks guys. =D>

For one, i don't have the option to use another mic. I'm working with only one condenser. However, there's a plus.. with the gain on full and the mic "opening up" i have a option i haven't tried yet. And that is, turning down the volume on the mic. I have a switch that lets me drop the volume by 5db or 10db. Also, in addition to that, i have a high pass filter. The options are to cut stuff down from 40hz or 80hz. Perhaps I'm getting to much low end , and thats creating the clipping.

I'll give that a try before anything else. However, i'd love to record just raw without turning switches.

As for the room, its carpeted, and there's curtains. No chairs, just a book case across from me. I remember that a year ago, i was remodeling, and with the room empty there's a horrid echo. So the furniture and everything else acutally helps dampen the room, and make it sound better.

The recording sounds perfectly good to my ears, but the signal is just too strong. I'll replace the strings on the guitar soon, but that'll just make it even louder. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:16 am 
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Mr. Electonica Dude
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For pete's sake invest in an additional mic.............

Try one about the 12 fret and one over your right shoulder. Move 'em around and point 'em till things get right. You might be surprised once the submix is done. I record the mandolin and A-guitar this way. Try not to move around much as you play.

Stretched new strings are a must.

msg

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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:03 pm 
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The Reverend
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how about recording a bunch of wildly different angles, mic placement, etc.(w/o clipping of course) on virtual tracks...save the VT's...then you can pick and choose later during mixdown...you'd be surprised how different the guitar sounds when it is mixed with the other instruments...sometimes it sounds crappy alone, but when it comes to the big picture, it seems to work...I think that's where you can use compression without it "sounding" like compression...all aforementioned advice is out the window if its just an acoustic and vocal session... :oops:

and save up fer an additional condenser..salud.

Link below is just one way to skin the cat(I'm sure the info isn't anything new, but for what its worth...)



Link

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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:07 am 
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Tinhorn
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Location: Ontario, Canada
Favourite food: I like Pasta!
Machine type: AW1600
Thanks for all the tips and ideas. That video didn't really show anything i didn't know. But i'll face the MIC away from the sound hole and more towards the neck. Maybe that'll get rid of some of the low end (and reduce the clipping)

In addition, would you guys advise that if the mic is 1-2feet away from the 12fret, and if its clipping... could i perhaps use the pad on my mic to drop the input volume by 5 or 10 db.. that would definetely reduce the clipping at my loudest strum. Or would you guys advice against that?

They say to use the pad when recording drums, or micing loud guitar amps, etc. But couldn't that apply also to an acoustic?

thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:44 pm 
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Website Slayer and Problem Solver
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Try the attenuator pad on the mic. It will drop all the guitar audio by that amount. Can't hurt to try. Also you won't get the added "room sound" like when you moved the mic away from the guitar.

I must say that I've never run into your situation, however, and I've recorded a lot of acoustic guitar.

Good luck,

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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:03 pm 
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Marker Magician
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There is also a virtual attenuator knob in the Channel View screen, at the beginning of the chain, just after the AD converter. So if the signal is entering the machine with the quality and characteristics you like, it can be adjusted to some extent, so as to integrate comfortably with the gain staging happening down the chain, within the AW.

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 Post subject: What a pain!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:53 pm 
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The General

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HogTime wrote:
Try the attenuator pad on the mic. It will drop all the guitar audio by that amount. Can't hurt to try. Also you won't get the added "room sound" like when you moved the mic away from the guitar.


That's good advice, that is....

=D>


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 Post subject: What a pain!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:54 pm 
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The General

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Byron wrote:
There is also a virtual attenuator knob in the Channel View screen, at the beginning of the chain, just after the AD converter. So if the signal is entering the machine with the quality and characteristics you like, it can be adjusted to some extent, so as to integrate comfortably with the gain staging happening down the chain, within the AW.


=D> More good advice.


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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:50 pm 
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Tinhorn
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Great, i'll try other various mic positions and the pad on my mic, but most importantly, i'll experiment, and let you guys know how it goes.

=D>

I guess my mic is super powerful, either that or my room is making all this sound bounce around and come back into the mic..could be anything really. #-o


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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:55 am 
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You just said the magic word .... Experiment!! That's the way we learn. Also, there is no way to "break the machine" in this case. :P

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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:57 am 
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Mr. Electonica Dude
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I use the double take method on the piano and A / guitar. It's by far my favorite and most realistic method.

msg

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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:44 am 
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Former Computer Geek
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Word Mr. Skygod.

-= Beer

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I LOVE THIS!!! Ted Stevens, 82-year-old US Senator from Alaska and chairman of the Senate Committee on Science, Commerce and Transportation, for explaining in a speech how the Internet actually works: “It’s a series of tubes.”


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 Post subject: Re: What a pain!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:04 am 
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Tinhorn
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PROBLEM SOLVED (i think, i hope.. :lol: )


So I discovered WHY i was hearing it clip. It was the STUPID stereo bus fooling me. Let me explain.

I checked all my levels, and i realized that my INPUT signal never clips and was fine. But the stereo one was going over the top. Turns out it was the "track fader".

I usually put it up at 0db to listen to my recording signal. However with it down to -50db i can still HEAR my guitar which is fine and enough for me. I guess with it all the way to 0db or so, it adds additional volume to the stereo bus and therefor overdrives the stereo bus and clips.

I found this all out after i recorded my "clipping" guitar and then played it back and watched the meters. The track signal was perfect and the stereo meter was peaking at -6 and -5 db's. So all i did was turn down my track fader(s) while recording and then i don't have to listen to my damn stereo overdrive it self.

Moral of story: I'm an idiot for missing this in the first place. Guess it's all about trial and error :oops:

Thanks for the tips tho. I tried out all different micing positions, distances, room ambience, mic pickup patterns, etc. cardioid seems to work the best for me - at about 1.5-2 feet away from the 12fret, facing UP the neck as opposed to towards the sound hole. =D>


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