The DijonStock Digital Home Recording Support Forum

i am thinking of using the aw2400 as a live mixer while also recording my band. We would probably use 16 input channels, connecting a MOTU 8pre via light pipe to the installed MY8-AT option card in the AW to give an additional 8 XLR inputs. However, before risking a gig I thought I'd see if others have tried this. In particular, because I am likely to record a 2 1/2 hour gig as one or two songs, the 16 track song files are likely to be rather large and I've read elsewhere here that the hard disk can find this quite hard going and starts flashing warning messages. Clearly, I would not want the mixer to cry foul and pack up in the middle of a gig so would be interested to hear other peoples' experiences.

I have done as you plan, including using a lightpipe to add additional inputs.

There is one big caution and it involves an AW2400 learning curve.

First - you will want to make your songs 16 bit, not 24. The machine uses only 12 channels in 24 bit.

Second - a major head scratcher and probably a disappointment, as it will disrupt your conceived plan. The AW has 24 channels available - total. to record you will link (arm) inputs to tracks. This "link" takes up 2 of the 24. So this means you can have 12 channels that send an input through a track then on to the stereo bus. It is the tracks on the stereo bus that you monitor for your audience. So what I am saying is that if you utilize more than 12 inputs, you will not be able to monitor them all through the stereo bus. If you were to use 16 inputs, then you would only be able to listen to 8 of them (16 + 8 = 24) , through the stereo bus (controlled by the red fader). Hard to believe - but true.

So the most straight-forward usage is to plan on 12 channels. Now you must understand that tracks that have been "muted" (automatically by the machine) as the input count increases can still be recorded to >> You just can't listen to them while the recording is happening. This presents a couple of options. You could still make a "room" recording to capture the "live" sound ( later to provide foundation to a mix) while monitoring the signals that you want the audience to hear for the show. But don't forget that if the input count goes to 14, you will only be able to monitor 10 tracks. So you could have 10 for the audience to hear ( which uses 20 of the 24) + 2 muted for the ambient (room) mic and then + 2 (muted) for recording guitar cabinets that can stand on their own for the show, but will be utilized later in a mixing environment. That is about the best you can do.

Now you have Aux outs (4x1 mono or 2x2 stereo), and those signals are tapped before the track signal is muted. So if you use the AW as a show mixer, one or two of the Aux busses will need to be used for stage monitors, for the performers. Another Aux out could carry a mix of 16 tracks to an amplifier for the Front of House sound. But, this is bordering on very inconvenient as all adjustment would need be accomplished on the screen -- no individual faders - If the signal is tapped post (track) fader, then those faders would effectively adjust the mix for FOH, but also attenuate the signal to the recorder at the same time. If you take the signal to the Aux pre-fader, then as i said the only way to adjust the mix is on the screen. I'd have to think about what the implications are for pan, should you want to mix in stereo.

As for the HD - I have made some very long songs over the years. the harddrive often does flash HD busy warnings, but i have gained enough confidence to ignore them. I have never had the machine crap out on me. But, if someone is paying you to record, then I might be a bit nervous until the recording was "in the can". But for an archive, or if you accept the (seemingly small) risk - go for it.

Final word of advice - have someone available to push the marker button at the start (or end) of each song. This will save hours in post production as you use this master to mix your show for CD. Workflow for that job is another topic.

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Byron

Another way to use more than 12 tracks while still monitoring for FOH would be to do a "mixed" recording. This as you may know allows assignment of multiple inputs to the two buses available on the 2400. You could put all the vocals on one and everything else on the other. Or drums and bass on one and the other stuff on the second bus. but as you can imagine this limits post production possibilities almost entirely, other than some balancing/EQ/compression of the two mixes.

I have run two recorders simultaneously on a few occasions, in order to increase track count. It was to record a stage/dance big band. I wasn't doing the FOH though and I had a mixture of mics and DI lines i set myself along with section spot mics and a vocal signal that i patched from the FOH board. But two recorders could be made to work for you too.

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Byron

Thanks for all the trouble you've gone to there, Byron. The marker idea is a great one. It's also very good to know that the HD can stand heavy usage despite its protestations.

On the subject of simultaneous live mixing and recording I have found that you can do both with 16 inputs. The 24 track limitation appears to be one of simultaneous recording plus playback. Note, playback of pre-recorded tracks and not monitoring of signal flow to the stereo bus. With all 16 tracks armed for recording and actually recording one can still do a live 16 channel mix despite the second set of 8 tracks being muted in the track view.

What you do is set up the input channels and make sure that each channel has it's ON button lit up. (Note that all 16 input channels and all 16 track channels must be turned ON). Whilst in recording mode (ie armed and recording tracks) the input faders in the input layers have no effect on the mix; those on the track layers control the individual levels going to the stereo bus but do not affect the signals going to the recording engine. What appears to be happening here is that the input channels are sending the pre-fade signals to the recording engine and are acting as Direct Outs in this regard. The track faders, however, act as the mixer of these channels to the stereo bus but have no impact on the levels going to the tracks being recorded (which are all at pre-fade, post-input trim from the "direct outs"). This is a bit counter-intuitive but that's what is going on. If you look at the signal flow diagram on page 15 of the owner's manual you can sort of see what is happening.

Interesting machine and it can do a lot more than appears at first sight. However, for me at any rate, having returned to it after a few years disuse, it has taken quite a lot of working out. I would not say it is particularly intuitive to use, at least not in the heat of the moment, without great familiarity and even then it is quite clumsy in some regards. The curious operations I describe above form one example but also I find the need to use the "Selected Channel" section to determine individual AUX and EFFECT levels rather cumbersome (and the effect section itself is not the easiest to figure out since the global sends and returns are placed on fader layers rather than with dedicated knobs). While the channel strip idea is universally accepted for digital mixers, I do feel the implementation here is not ideal. It is, of course, an old machine and was remarkable advanced in its time so one should not criticise. Nevertheless, I think if I was starting again I'd go for one of the new breed of digital mixers, some of which allow multi-channel recording as well, and which have many more integrated inputs as well as graphic EQ for feedback suppression and more advanced effects. However, you would pay a lot more for such a machine than you would for a good used AW2400 with similar, if less ergonomic, capabilities.

Thanks a bunch for the walk through. Before I sat down today to see if you had responded, i was at my desk checking the signal flow view screens, as I was having doubts about the "truth" of what I had said. The pictures just weren't revealing to me what was actually going on, so your explanation makes sense of my misunderstanding. I will sit down again and rethink it. this whole "mute" thing has been very confusing over the years, and I thought I had it under my belt, but I will gladly rejig my foundation. I will configure my machine to do as you say is true and demonstrate to myself this interpretation you present.

This will make my life much easier actually. by coincidence I am doing a FOH job tomorrow that would best happen using more than 12 tracks and I was wanting to record, but hesitating on using the AW because of the situation about which we are talking. I will revisit my plans and reassess my options.

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Byron

Will be interested to hear how you get on

Another thought when live recording is all the tracks taken by the drum kit. I recommend you get an inexpensive 8 channel mixer where you can run mic's into the mixer for the drums and then take the stereo output and run it in to two of the 2400 inputs. Now you are only using up two tracks of recording, but still have a nice panoramic drum sound.

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GSMUSIC: Hey RZ, Im not no upper class american, the gear I own is what I have special to me. My car sucks, my house sucks, my nieghborhood sucks. Does yours RZ? Does it?

rz-land

Well, I am glad you came along!! I armed all 16 tracks >>> 8 input from the Aw and 8 inputs from an 8 channel M-Audio "Octo" AD box, via lightpipe.

I was able to record through input 1 from the AW and also through input 16 from the other box. As you arm the tracks to inputs in1>tr1: 1n2>tr2 .... In 16> tr 16, the tracks show muted consecutively backwards from 24. So when all 16 ins are armed to 16 tracks the tracks 9> 24 show as muted. But, as you pointed out you are able to listen to them as you record.

I guess when I was on my learning curve some years ago I falsely assumed that you could not hear these tracks during the recording, because of their mute status. I think I convinced myself of this before I acquired my box that gives the 8 extra inputs and then assumed I had it right.... so all this time I have assumed you could only monitor 12 tracks if you are using 12 ins.

Your explanation's AHA moment for me was when you pointed out that monitoring during recording and Playback are not one and the same. So in my example above when I recorded to tracks 1 and 16 and then pressed play, I was only able to hear track one. (9-24 show as muted) but if I then muted a currently unmuted track (one of tracks 2-8) it becomes possible to defeat the mute on tr 16. >>> Press play and there are both 1 and 16. Fantastic!!

I will now have to decide if i want to utilize this new understanding tomorrow because if I do I will be the only one on site who can manipulate the board, with all its screens and layers. I am supposed to be on stage too. We'll see. But for future gigs and sound tech jobs this opens up possibilities. It is surprising how track counts creep up just past 12, which is what I thought I was capable of hearing and recording at the same time. This limitation held me back from using my 2400 for live shows.

My apologies to Yamaha for cursing them out so many times for what i thought was a stupid configuration. I am the stupid one it appears. I am glad i took the time to misinform you and doubly glad you took the time to explain the real situation!!!

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Byron

Great. Glad it's worked out.

Oh no you're not. You're one of the least stupid people I know.

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

Aw shucks!!

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Byron

Hi friends,

Ha, really great knowledge here.
So if I understand the above mentioned correct I can record 24 inputs simultaneously and hear all this from the stereo sum when hitting the red record button? Is this correct?
And I will be able to apply the effect section for the tracks and record a dry signal? Correct?

Seems after all this years I am a newbie with this great machine
Andreas

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Blues aint nothing but the blues!

Well Andreas, you and i were on the same curve i think. I don't think you can get 24 inputs, but 16 are available utilizing a card in the slot. I, for one, (and i'm thinking you too) thought 12 was the max if you wanted to hear them (monitor them) during the recording process. but I have been corrected by new member Waterden. You can record (and monitor) 16. You just can't listen back (playback) to all of them until the input>track links have been broken.

Seriously, this aspect escaped me. Probably because of all the MUTE designations that appear as you arm Input> Tracks in Direct Recording mode. I guess this oversight became my "truth" and as a result i haven't asked the machine to do all it can.

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Byron

Yes, that is correct

You can also apply effects to the inputs as well (send/return), as that bus signal goes to the stereo bus, not the individual tracks. If you want an effect recorded during tracking, insert the effect into the chosen channel's signal chain.

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Byron

Thank you for answering, Byron.
24 was my mistake. And you are right, we had been on the same curve.

Andreas

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Blues aint nothing but the blues!

I know you can record 4 tracks.

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GSMUSIC: Hey RZ, Im not no upper class american, the gear I own is what I have special to me. My car sucks, my house sucks, my nieghborhood sucks. Does yours RZ? Does it?

rz-land

Four is a good number and often all you need.

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Byron

Actually, all you need is love.

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GSMUSIC: Hey RZ, Im not no upper class american, the gear I own is what I have special to me. My car sucks, my house sucks, my nieghborhood sucks. Does yours RZ? Does it?

rz-land

There is a budding birthday song in there somewhere > "All You Need Is Love (and four tracks)"

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Byron

Already been done by my friend: "All you Need is Lunch".

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GSMUSIC: Hey RZ, Im not no upper class american, the gear I own is what I have special to me. My car sucks, my house sucks, my nieghborhood sucks. Does yours RZ? Does it?

rz-land