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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:51 pm 
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Greenhorn

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I've been trying out my new Rode NT1A condenser mic.

First of all, I connected it straight in to the AW16g with phantom power on.
I had to have the gain almost at full to get a signal, which was weak.

So, I tried it in my Mackie pre-amp, phantom power on.
Dramatic difference. Gain away down. Much better result.

I thought it would be OK straight in to the 16g but not so.

Is this normal, or am I missing something.
Thanks for any advice.
Dave.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:12 pm 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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Hi Dave,

I used the mic without external preamp. That doesn't mean that this suits every recording situation, on the contrary.

Most people use it with an external preamp. It'll give you lots more options.

It might be a good idea to check all settings to see if there isn't anything muting your signal, like balance or fader. If you want to make sure, recall initial data from the scene list and move the faders down and up - which is always a good idea when you start a new project.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:53 pm 
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I have done it both ways. However like you, I found a better sound and signal using a preamp.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:41 pm 
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Mr. Electonica Dude
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I have the NT1 and 1-A version . Can't tell 'em apart soundwise . They are among the most quiet self noised ones in my closet . They work really well for overheads , guitar cabinets IMO .

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:51 pm 
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Another question.
Can I connect a dynamic mic(SM58) to the pre-amp when I have the NT1A connected(with phantom power).?

Dave.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:56 pm 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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It's not designed to do that, but I can't imagine it would hurt your mic.

Keep an eye on the signal of the Rode:

A condenser is made to use phantom power, but "power" is in fact an ill chosen word. It does not consume anything because the current (DC) is virtually zero. So, the power unit that provides the 48 Volts is probably a very small one. When you connect a dynamics mic to a phantom powered input, you connect a coil to the power unit, and the coil actually consumes power, for which the power unit was never designed. So, the voltage might collapse resulting in loss of signal. This loss may very well be inaudible small. Reason I tell you this is that when you run into a problem, this might have to do with it.

Your Mackie has like 12 inputs, right? I bet you can have phantom power on some, and no phantom power on other in the same time. Connect the Rode to one of the phantom powered inputs and the sm58 to one of the non-powered inputs. I'm sure your manual can tell you which one are/can be phantom powered.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:39 pm 
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Hi Rob, thanks for that.

My Mackie has 8 inputs, but only has a main phantom power switch, not one for each channel.
I must have a manual somewhere, but where???
Time to go searching methinks.
Dave.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:43 pm 
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I would try to use the condensor mic through the mackie without the phantom power switch on. See if you still get a nice level and sound. If so, then you won't have to worry about it. On the other hand, I'm sure mixers are designed to handle more than condensor mics so I'd think that dynamics would work just as well with phantom on or off.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:49 pm 
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I was thinking that, trying the two mics with no phantom power.
I thought though, that the NT1A needed that.
But with the phantom power, the signal is so strong. I mean very strong.
Maybe I should try that.(no phantom power).
Thanks RZ.
Dave.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:52 pm 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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Dave,

If I read it right, only input channel 1-4 have phantom power. Which is logical, as they have XLR inputs, and jack inputs (like your 5-12) never have phantom power.

So, connect the condenser to 1, 2, 3 or 4 and the sm58 on 5 or higher.

http://www.mackie.com/pdf/archive/ms1202vlz_om.pdf See page 10.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:58 pm 
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You are spot on Rob. The Mackie has XLR channels 1-4. 5-8 are jack inputs.
Do I understand you correctly.? Phantom power only goes to the XLR channels.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:45 am 
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Hi Dave. I'm still learning this stuff to. What all the advice ( multiple industry professionals and product manuals) I've gathered is, is that phantom won't hurt dynamic mics. They aren't designed to use it, so they just ignore it. Phantom power can only run in a 3 wire cable so 1/4" jacks 5-8 are phantom free. At least the 48volt kind of phantom. :frank2: I could be wrong but here's hoping I gathered the sound nuts.
Can you configure your setup so all your condensers go through the Mackie and all the dynamics are straight into the G.
BTW My input gain levels for overheads (Shure sm94) on the G is near 2:00 position. Pretty much the same as the dynamic mics on the rest of the kit.
I have the same 1202vlz and have used it with condenser mics and have at times run these same mics straight into the G. The Mackie seems to have slightly hotter preamps. Many recordings of a band in practice room had 2 condensers and 2 dynamics (vocals) running to Mackie inputs 1-4 with phantom on. (Inserts 1-4 out to G) Vocal dynamic mics worked great. No detectable sound issues. I have also mixed up the condensers and dynamics on the G and the 1600 with no issues detected.
After forgetting to turn Ph power on and off so many times; and just finding those tiny virtually inaccessable phantom switches on the Yammies with all the wire jacked in there; now generally I leave the phantom on and just don't worry about it anymore.
When we record songwriting practices or jams I have the 3 vocal mics and kick mic going into the mackie to feed the PA and inserts out to the recorders. That 1202 is so very versatile with the extra alt 3-4 outs and the 2 aux. sends. For live recording it does a great job of splitting signals between PA and Recorder. With the 4 inserts, thats 8 seperate lines out. Before I got the 1600 linked up I needed the Mackie and additional preamps to combine signals down to the 8 input on the G. :lol:
Better stop now or this thread will turn into drivel.
Cheers
Bruce


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:56 am 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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folkin'dave wrote:
Do I understand you correctly.? Phantom power only goes to the XLR channels.


Yes sir. So, Rode in 1, Shure in 5 and phantom power problems are not possible.

BTW I wouldn't put the Shure directly in the G. If any mic needs a preamp, it's a dynamic.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:59 am 
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Bruce wrote:
Better stop now or this thread will turn into drivel.


It has been drivel free for about 12 posts now, waaay above average! :)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:29 pm 
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Marker Magician
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Robbie wrote:
folkin'dave wrote:
Do I understand you correctly.? Phantom power only goes to the XLR channels.


Yes sir. So, Rode in 1, Shure in 5 and phantom power problems are not possible.

BTW I wouldn't put the Shure directly in the G. If any mic needs a preamp, it's a dynamic.



If the dynamic goes into 5 on the Mackie - it will just sit there. The channels 5 - 12 on the Mackie are paired (stereo) line level inputs. The dynamic needs a preamp, not available on inputs 5 - 12 on the Mackie.

The AW pres seem to spark up right at the top of their gain, So it can be done, but setting levels in this top end of the knob's travel is finicky, and subject to Preamp noise. external pre is the way to go. The Mackie give you 4 of these - use the insert points (to the first click of the patch cord) to send the signal to AW

- or -

set Mackie to send 1 -2 to the main out of mixer (pan 1 hard left and 2 hard right - this will make them discrete). Do the same with channels 3 -4 - but this pair will have their mute buttons engaged (down) . All muted signals are routed to the Alt 3-4 outs on the back of the mixer - send these signals (don't forget to Pan them hard L-R) to the AW.

The second method has the signal running through the Mackie channel strips, so what ever is added (EQ, Volume etc.) is in play.

the first (insert point) method is coming right off the pre, so it is only the trim control affecting your send. Pan works the same for both methods

Inputs 5 - 12 are out of the equation for what you are trying to do.

The Phantom - dynamic issue is out of the equation too - don't worry about it. Just be careful, as you always should about connecting mics while the volume to you speakers is up. Making condenser mic connections made/broken with phantom on can cause damaging pops - injurious to ears via headphones and potentially destructive of speakers.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:25 pm 
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I really wouldn't have suspected that any kind of mixer has un-amped inputs. Putting something in the mix is amplification I'd say. This shows just how much I know of the stuff... the already brittle reputation I had is now shattered.

Oh well... something learned today... :) 8)

I have a 24 channel yamaha mixer lying around somewhere... better check what it can do, or better, can't do before I rely on something that isn't there...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:57 pm 
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HamelnStock Survivor and Midi Guru
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Well As you said Robbie something to learn every day. Most mixers have XLR inputs and a gain knob on those channels that have preamps. These support mic's. I found that even low budget Behringer preamps provide better signals that just the G preamps. Not a lot but significant. A tube preamp works best. The inputs on the mixer that do not have XLR inputs and gain knobs (do not confuse with the sliders) are line level inputs which means the are designed for signals that have already been amplified. They are usually stereo too. If you put a Mic in a line level input you'll hardly hear it. It does amplify but just a little.

I have used my Condensor GATT LD5 with phantom power in combination with SM58 on several tryouts and did not have a problem yet except that since i'm using a dynamic the SM58 no longer succeeds in charming me. When i hear my own voice trough the Condensor i find it acceptable sometimes but trough the SM58 it sounds just bad, nasal and huming.

Still no day in the near future where we can a do a face to face Dave ?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:24 pm 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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fordirk wrote:
line level inputs which means the are designed for signals that have already been amplified.


Thanks Dirk, I was missing the logic, but I have it now. Having given it some thought it makes sense.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Most larger 12+ channels mixers have a few (two often) stereo/ line level ins. It just so happens that on the small Mackie ( and other small mixers ) the ratio between preamped strips and line level strips is about 50 - 50.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:52 pm 
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Bloody hell.!!! So much information.
Thanks for the input (no pun intended).

I really have to read over these posts again.
Am I confused?? Oh Yes!!!
Am I a Luddite?? Oh Yes.!!!

So, I'll try all the combinations that I've been given by knowledgeable people here.
Thanks for that.

It's so frustrating when you just want to sing a song, play some instruments, and record it.
Which I did with the SM58, but maybe could have been better. (Also my AW16G knowledge)
It's my fault because I'm not technical, but I'm determined to get there.
Or maybe I'll just be at the basic level of recording instruments, and harmony voices.

Nothing wrong with that. I just want to play my instruments, do some harmonies, then record it.

I think I'm beginning to talk nonsense now, so I'm out of here.

Dirk. Hope to see you soon.

Dave.


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