The DijonStock Digital Home Recording Support Forum

*** USER REGISTRATION DISABLED! FOR ACCESS TO THE BOARD, MAIL TO registration AT dijonstock DOT com. THANK YOU ***
It is currently Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:51 pm

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:42 pm 
Offline
Sample Pad & Tempo Map Specialist
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 369
Location: Georgetown, KY
Favourite food: possum
Machine type: AW1600
First off, I don't know a thing about any of this stuff....


All I want to be able to do is write some bass lines, and some ambient synth chords for an idea I have...I have Fruity Loops 7, and currently I write this stuff in the piano roll manually (this takes forever)...if I bought myself one of these http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/MAudio-O2-USB-MIDI-Controller?sku=703611V would it do the trick? I'm trying to go as cheap as I can...I'm not a keyboard player so I don't think I'll notice not having weighted keys, etc.

_________________
"Arpeggios are like women...'cept you can't tie one up and put it in your trunk..."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:26 pm 
Offline
Mr. Electonica Dude
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:48 am
Posts: 11452
Location: Godly Taxas
Favourite food: Frog Legs
Machine type: AW4416
That outa do the trick for you. Weighted keys are really for piano players you want that tactile piano keyboard feel. Personally I like the semi-weighted keys on my synths.

You will however also need a midi interface between the keyboard and your computer. A m-audio uno is about the cheapest solution to that.


msg

_________________
THE MUSIC IS DOWN IN HERE
____________________________________________________

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:44 pm 
Offline
Sample Pad & Tempo Map Specialist
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 369
Location: Georgetown, KY
Favourite food: possum
Machine type: AW1600
dang...I thought I would just be able to plug straight into USB from the USB port on the controller...buying the interface you mentioned will almost double the price (yes, I know I am a cheapo)... :(

So another question, lol...If I buy a more expensive controller, would it have a midi interface built in?

_________________
"Arpeggios are like women...'cept you can't tie one up and put it in your trunk..."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:07 pm 
Offline
Website Slayer and Problem Solver
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:28 am
Posts: 1254
Location: 1/2 Central CA Coast; 1/2 RVing
Machine type: AW1600
You don't need a MIDI interface with this. It connects to your PC via USB. It does have a MIDI out port if you wanted to connect to an external sound module.

I have a similar model. I have noticed quite a "time lag" in the notes when trying to play along with something on the PC. This will vary according to the program in use on the PC, however.

_________________
Ralph (aka The Head Hog)
"What's Time to a Hog?"
Hog Time Music Website - My Songs on Soundclick -


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:04 pm 
Offline
Mr. Electonica Dude
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:48 am
Posts: 11452
Location: Godly Taxas
Favourite food: Frog Legs
Machine type: AW4416
:oops: My bad , didn't realize it had a USB interface. The latency "lag" is most noticeable on percussive patches , slow attack and release voices arn't quite so apparant.

_________________
THE MUSIC IS DOWN IN HERE
____________________________________________________

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:38 pm 
Offline
Sample Pad & Tempo Map Specialist
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 369
Location: Georgetown, KY
Favourite food: possum
Machine type: AW1600
haha...one question always leads to another...is there any way to eliminate the lag, like plugging directly into a soundcard with a midi port or is it just something you deal with? Just on a hunch I'm gonna say it'll cost me more money... :lol:

_________________
"Arpeggios are like women...'cept you can't tie one up and put it in your trunk..."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:10 pm 
Offline
Mr. Electonica Dude
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:48 am
Posts: 11452
Location: Godly Taxas
Favourite food: Frog Legs
Machine type: AW4416
One way to get around the latency is to set the soft synth to be used in a stand alone mode if possible. Then just record the audio outs of your computer direct into the hardware recorder and monitor the hardware recorder just like you would if you were overdubbing a track.

Your performance will vary by the type of computer , it's memory , operating system and cpu load. But it's near zreo when done that way.

msg

_________________
THE MUSIC IS DOWN IN HERE
____________________________________________________

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:50 am 
Offline
Sample Pad & Tempo Map Specialist
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 369
Location: Georgetown, KY
Favourite food: possum
Machine type: AW1600
I ordered it today...I'll let ya know how it turns out...and if (when) I have more questions... :lol:

_________________
"Arpeggios are like women...'cept you can't tie one up and put it in your trunk..."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:19 am 
Offline
Sample Pad & Tempo Map Specialist
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 369
Location: Georgetown, KY
Favourite food: possum
Machine type: AW1600
Got the controller today...pretty simple, just plug and play...I haven't fooled around with assigning any of the knobs or buttons yet, but I played around with some sounds and all the keys worked etc...

two problems / questions...

1. The keys are touch sensitive...when I strike them with regular force, the volume is very low...if I really slam them I get a full attack...I know there is probably a setting to tweak this, but I couldn't find anything that said sensitivity or anything like that...maybe you synth guys have a special word for it that I'm not familiar with?

2. The latency is terrible....The manual suggested turning down the audio buffer, but this didn't help in my case...I can play out melodies, but I have to adjust them in the piano roll view (which I know I'll have to do a little bit of cause I ain't no keyboard player) but it is off enough to stretch the piece out more measures etc...msg, could you go in to a little more detail about the stand alone setup you mentioned? I'm not sure how to go about it in fruity loops, and that is the only synth sounds that I have

All in all though I see this being a real time saver for me cutting out the "graphing" of the melodies... :lol:

P.S. if you need to know my cpu specs they are: AMD 64 X2 (2 ghz), 1 gig of ram

_________________
"Arpeggios are like women...'cept you can't tie one up and put it in your trunk..."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:51 am 
Offline
Website Slayer and Problem Solver
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:28 am
Posts: 1254
Location: 1/2 Central CA Coast; 1/2 RVing
Machine type: AW1600
I think the latency is going to depend somewhat on the software synthesizer used. I don't know if Fruity Loops has it's own or uses the Windows one.

On the Band-in-a-Box forum people mention the ForteDXi software synth. I see it has a free download. If Fruity Loops can use an alternate synth DXi, you might try the Forte one at:
http://www.coyotes.bc.ca/ForteDXi.html

None of this is simple, is it? :)

_________________
Ralph (aka The Head Hog)
"What's Time to a Hog?"
Hog Time Music Website - My Songs on Soundclick -


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:41 am 
Offline
Mr. Electonica Dude
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:48 am
Posts: 11452
Location: Godly Taxas
Favourite food: Frog Legs
Machine type: AW4416
yep , yer having the same problem I have with my USB Axiom 61. Let's start to unravel this deal with a few facts.

Audio drivers.........basically 3 types. MME , ASIO and WDM/KS.

Seems most USB devices use the old WDM/KS drivers. They are the slowest and have the most latency ......some program material has as much as 1500ms latency for Sonar to even play it without glitches. Of course that's totally unacceptable and by manipulating the buffers (increasing or decreasing) one might get down to around 50ms. to 90ms. That's marginal for pads and sound effects but still horrible for plucked or attack synth voices.

MME is truly designed for 32 bit operating systems but still has latency of around 15ms to 30ms on my machine.

AISO is the only way to go. It averages around 05ms which is definitely something I can live with.

MIDI messages.

Now comes the midi information transfer protocol. The slowest being a standard midi cable. That is why when sending SySex messages you need to slow the sending sequencer down to about 60 BPM so all the big chunks of midi messages have time to get through.

USB is better and can send MIDI messages without much delay. Fir example a back of synth patches can be sequencer loaded easily at 200 BPM.

Firewire is the MIDI "20 lane Autobahn" of the transfers. Firewire supports both ASIO and high speed MIDI so it is the best of both worlds.


OK now back to definitions. I have a copy of Fruity Loops III. The synths (instruments) are called "plug in instruments". What that means is they plug into the host program and usually won't run outside the host. Those that do are called "stand alone". What that means is you don't need to open your recording software to access the sounds if you have a MIDI controller. The program just inputs your keyboard's MIDI messages (or your favorite sequencer) and audio is heard from the synth's voice outputs. Simple with near zero latency because the computer does not have to process the other tracks along with the synth through the host program.(which slows things down)

Good MIDI keyboards transmit many messages . Sticking to the actual keyboard MIDI output for simplicity , there is the basic note on / off message , what actual note it is , velocity or attack (actually the speed the key is pressed) and the aftertouch message. (How hard you pressed it). By measuring all of these inputs , modern MIDI is a far cry from the dull monotone midi sounds your cell phone plays. These things are the "touch sensitivity" you are experiencing form your device. They can all be adjusted to your playing style usually in the global settings for your keyboard. Look for the terms velocity and aftertouch in the setup menu of the controller. Set these to suit. Aftertouch is a cool this that can be assigned to any midi controller. On the Hammond , I set aftertouch to 1 (no aftertouch) and 128 (full aftertouch) like an on /off switch. Now I can control my 2101 Leslie by pressing hard for tremolo and lightly for chorale (slow). This is totally independent of what the pedal is telling the Leslie to do. Velocity is set depending on the patch created and what I want it to do as it unfolds.

Tuning the computer for minimum latency.

This is what I do for all it's worth. Use firewire whenever possible. Kill any programs on the host computer that might be using resources. (ex. firewalls , screen savers, scheduled windows tasks , wallpaper , internet connection software , and any of the stuff you see in the lower right hand corner of yer screen. All of these things rob you of mainly memory and that was the major bogdown of my laptop. Install as much RAM as your computer will take. Memory is cheaper than a faster CPU and seems to make more "seat of the pants" difference in performance.

Didn't mean to lecture but you know how I am at times. :lol:

It's all kinda a pain in the buttski at first but the rewards are well worth it once you get it all working,

Good luck with it.

msg

_________________
THE MUSIC IS DOWN IN HERE
____________________________________________________

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:09 am 
Offline
Sample Pad & Tempo Map Specialist
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 369
Location: Georgetown, KY
Favourite food: possum
Machine type: AW1600
HogTime wrote:
I think the latency is going to depend somewhat on the software synthesizer used. I don't know if Fruity Loops has it's own or uses the Windows one.

On the Band-in-a-Box forum people mention the ForteDXi software synth. I see it has a free download. If Fruity Loops can use an alternate synth DXi, you might try the Forte one at:
http://www.coyotes.bc.ca/ForteDXi.html

None of this is simple, is it? :)


Thanks for the link...Fruity Loops actually has a DXi synth so I'm pretty sure it will work...
and no...it's not simple :lol:


msg...thank you so much for the info...I copy/pasted it to word so I can study it (I have to read things on paper sometimes for it to click :lol: )...I'm gonna study the manual and figure out how to set all the stuff you mentioned...I'm sure glad I got this thing before the weekend!

_________________
"Arpeggios are like women...'cept you can't tie one up and put it in your trunk..."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:38 am 
Offline
Sample Pad & Tempo Map Specialist
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 369
Location: Georgetown, KY
Favourite food: possum
Machine type: AW1600
Thanks so much again for the information...it made reading the manual alot easier...when I got off work today, I hooked up to fruity loops and assigned my knobs, etc....I also figured out that the latency is not recorded...I just took the headphones off to record my part and I was not thrown off by the sound I was hearing... :lol:

Only a little adjustment was needed in the piano roll view...You guys are a great help!


=D>

_________________
"Arpeggios are like women...'cept you can't tie one up and put it in your trunk..."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:07 pm 
Offline
Sample Pad & Tempo Map Specialist
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 369
Location: Georgetown, KY
Favourite food: possum
Machine type: AW1600
So....I guess this thread was way overdue for an update....I love the things that midi has opened up for me...

I'm a huge Zappa fan...I'm now in the process of covering a couple of his tunes for fun...unfortunately I picked out extremely complex tunes with about 16 parts... being limited on time now days, things aren't progressing quite as I had planned, but what the hell...the cool thing is, with the midi setup I now have, with some time, I can pull off all those crazy cartoon like call and response lines that really appeals to me with Frank's music...I now have access to a multitude of instruments that I thought were out of my reach not being a keyboard player...my next shot of burbon will be dedicated to Hogtime, msg, and the dude that invented midi... :lol:

_________________
"Arpeggios are like women...'cept you can't tie one up and put it in your trunk..."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small Controller...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:39 am 
Offline
Mr. Electonica Dude
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:48 am
Posts: 11452
Location: Godly Taxas
Favourite food: Frog Legs
Machine type: AW4416
Midi has been my best friend for many reasons. Another neat thing about the piano roll view of things is that you can overdub on the same track as many times as you want. Audio , you have to use a separate track or a virtual for overdubs. Midi records my playing just as faithfully as any audio recorderand and mistakes are much easier to fix in midi. Don't like the key ? Wanna change the tempo ? No need to rerecord or use clunky audio fixes that leave artifacts. I use midi and audio together in Sonar and my Morif ES whe I was first intoduced to seamless audio/midi control.

msg

_________________
THE MUSIC IS DOWN IN HERE
____________________________________________________

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group