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 Post subject: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:56 pm 
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The Reverend
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Trying to play a midi file in Sonar so I can convert the drum tracks to a wav file and import it into the G...problem is, I can't seem to get the midi file to "play" in Sonar in order to preview it...

I'm probably missing something real easy here, but for some reason (uh, I'm a midiot :oops: ) I can't seem to figure it out...any takers? Zute, MSG, Art? Others? Getting real close to newbie flame material here...sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:18 am 
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never mind...figured it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:55 am 
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not so fast...can't seem to export individual midi tracks as wavs...had success exporting all the tracks as a stereo track, but no luck with the individs....hmmmmm.

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:14 am 
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There are 3 kinds of tracks in Sonar PE. Video , midi and audio. The quickest way to export (or import into Soanar) a file is to click , drag and drop it to the windows desktop and deal with it from there. Now realize any audio track is exported as a .wav file by default. Midi files are exported as .mid files. If you import or create a midi track in Sonar , the quickest way to hear what it sounds like is to assign the midi output to a synthesizer. Sonar has several to choose from. Once the midi output is configured to the synth , then audio is heard as the midi file plays. If you want a permanent audio file of the midi events then you need to select the 3 tracks that are set up when the soft synth loads , have the audio levels , any midi CC events recorded (via the synths record automation button) or midi effects applied.
To convert midi to audio you then bounce all 3 synth tracks to a separate audio file with the Edit > Bounce To tracks command. A resultant bounced track will be a separate .wav file of what the midi file played on that synth.

You could also just export the midi file and load it into a hardware sequencer or have Sonar play it into a separate hardware synth as well. It's all a matter of patching.

Holler if we need to go deeper , but that's the basics.

msg

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:40 am 
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Quote:
To convert midi to audio you then bounce all 3 synth tracks to a separate audio file with the Edit > Bounce To tracks command. A resultant bounced track will be a separate .wav file of what the midi file played on that synth.


not working....?

File is exported to the desktop, but when opened in a wav editor to check, no signal was recorded...flat line...

tried to export with many different options etc...no cigar either...

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:57 am 
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You should see the audio in the bounced track before you export. Make sure no other track is soloed or the bounced tracks are not muted. You can also try the "what you hear" preset in the bounce dialog box. Also make sure the source box is set to tracks . If you can hear the midi synth during playback before the bounce then this outa do the trick. Also make sure the master fader is set to 0db and the playback device fader is also set to 0db.

msg

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:42 pm 
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well, giving it my all, and it still hasn't worked out, so I decided to go direct...I play the midi track with all tracks muted except for bass and drums, then feed it directly from the mixer to the G inputs and record...is it possible to substitute different bass samples instead of the ones used for GM by Cakewalk? It sounds ok, but if I could trigger a different bass sound, that would be cool...maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree again...

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:19 pm 
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Bok,
Keep in mind that a midi file has no "sound" attached to it. It's just a recording of the performance, i.e., what key was pressed when and for how long. In sonar, playing the midi file is just triggering the soft synth to play the performance the midi file represents. Outside of Sonar, its just a file that says, "Play the middle C for 4 seconds", but nothing is listening to it, and no sound will come forth. (sometimes windows will play them with a cheesy synth that's part to your soundcard) Like Skygod said, you have to record the playback of that midi file onto an audio track to be able to hear it stand-alone with no sound source.

So you can route the midi track through your soft synth to an audio track in Sonar and press record (however you do that in sonar, dunno).
Or, route the midi file through your casio, the casio outs to the audio track, press record.

Same thing Skygod was saying, maybe I helped maybe I confused the issue. LOL, so what? You're supposed to be making vocals anyway!

In summary, a MIDI file has no inherent sound/audio attached to it. It is simply a performance that you apply to whatever midi capable instrument you have. Hopefully that makes sense. If not, bug Skygod. I've given you all I know. Hahahaha!


-= Beer

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:38 pm 
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yes, I capiche...

it's the friggin' routing that gives me fits...

anyway, I was wondering if I could patch the midi file into a soft synth program that had cooler bass samples...I guess that would mean using both the Cakewalk synth and another one...just wasn't sure how it was done or if even possible...

re: vox... still taking deep breaths and warming up... la la la la la la la...........

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:16 am 
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That sounds entirely possible. However, I don't use soft synths so I have no idea how they work. Maybe you can use an AUX track to receive the midi files audio and then re-route?

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:32 am 
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To build on what Beer said. A midi track has no sound of it's own. Yes.

It can be a recording of the mechanical aspects of a musician playing. I.E. A piano player plays a midi keyboard and from the midi out jack of the instrument comes information about pitch , key pressure , velocity of the keys' motion , aftertouch , and any CC# controllers used like a mod wheel , pitch wheel , ribbon controller , breath controller and so on.................IS recorded to the midi track.

The file can also be programmed using a sequencer. When speaking midi , think of a sequencer as a midi recorder and player. Sequencers come in both software and hardware versions. They both play and record midi information.

Sonar has a wonderfully easy to use sequencer in the Piano Roll View. Sonar even has midi effects that can be applied to sequences. Remember also that a sequencer can be edited using sysex. When you save a patch on a synthesizer , you are sending a sysex message to be saved and read back the next time you want to reproduce yer killer Hip Hop hit record patch.

Yes you can use a hardware synth to play a soft synth's patch , just patch in the midi out of yer hardware to the midi in of the recorder (sequencer) and play away.
When you rewind and play it back ......"Voila , man did I suck"........just like an audio recorder. :lol:

I was on the soft synth kick for about three months , but having a roomful of hardware synths , I found they sounded better. Software just can't compete with a real Prophet 5 or Moog. I've gone back to hardware , thank you. I will use one if I need a yawn pad and am too lazy to make one up but software synths still have a way to go IMO.

Got 'cher PM so I thought I would reply here for the good of the forum.

Glad you got'er sorted out.

msg

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:08 am 
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mrskygod wrote:
Remember also that a sequencer can be edited using sysex. When you save a patch on a synthesizer , you are sending a sysex message to be saved and read back the next time you want to reproduce yer killer Hip Hop hit record patch.

Yes you can use a hardware synth to play a soft synth's patch , just patch in the midi out of yer hardware to the midi in of the recorder (sequencer) and play away.
When you rewind and play it back ......"Voila , man did I suck"........just like an audio recorder. :lol:


So, I have the patches set for the 1st 4 tracks in my "GM2" template on the Juno G, they record/playback in Sonar. When I close my project, then maybe come back to it another day, I have to load the same 4 patches on the Juno's "GM2" template again to get my "killer hip hop hit" back the way it was...that is if my lame brain remembers what they were. I'm guessing that's just MIDI...and there's no way to basically open my Sonar project and have the Juno know what patches it needs to bring to the table for a particular project? I'm thinkin somehow storing patches IN sonar? Probably a pipe dream?

bh

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:17 am 
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Because of the major difference of bank and patch management among the manufacturers of hardware synths , there is now way Sonar can deal with every synth out there on that level. It will remember what patches are used on VST instruments within Sonar.

One workaround might be if your synth has a user bank that you can copy your favorites to and have Sonar request that entire bank via a dump.

It's easier and faster to just write them down in a notebook and select them manually , unless you are gigging every night , then a dump sequence is the way to go.

msg

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:02 am 
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mrskygod wrote:
Because of the major difference of bank and patch management among the manufacturers of hardware synths , there is now way Sonar can deal with every synth out there on that level. It will remember what patches are used on VST instruments within Sonar.

One workaround might be if your synth has a user bank that you can copy your favorites to and have Sonar request that entire bank via a dump.

It's easier and faster to just write them down in a notebook and select them manually , unless you are gigging every night , then a dump sequence is the way to go.

msg


thanks once again, MSG. I started saving the Patch names in each tracks' Title in Sonar. I'll check out the User banks..I know I have 8 of 'em collecting dust...

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:35 am 
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Anytime big guy. You are thinking like true midi guy now. :lol:

I learned sequencing on hardware and software sequencers take it all to another wonderful (and more complex sometimes) level.

msg

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:08 am 
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mrskygod wrote:
Anytime big guy. You are thinking like true midi guy now. :lol:

msg


thanks..
I'm sure puttin' forth the effort.. things are quiet tonight at work, here til 3:30am. Brought in my Juno G manual, and my Boss GT-8 manual.

Time sync'ing the Juno and Sonar is next on my list, after that, I want learn to control the GT-8 through the Juno. I know it's doable...

um, hope you're prepped for more questions... :?

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:56 am 
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page 149-150...simple, right? should be....er.....nope....hmmmm

Quote:
OK, here's what I want to do...

I want to play a bunch of midi tracks(between 8-12) and route them into individual channels in the G and eventually add my own guitar tracks...but I can't hit the play button on Sonar and hit the record button on the G simultaneously... making any sense here?



Geno, any specific settings on the G? Master ? Slave? Time code? I will be doing the recording on the G, not Sonar...


Still hoping for the big sync!!!!!!

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Last edited by bokchoy on Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:09 am 
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better read pages 149-150 first... :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:38 pm 
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bokchoy wrote:
better read pages 149-150 first... :oops:



man, I hadn't even thought about hooking the G into this frey I've got goin...it's all moving too fast..make it stop!! :lol:

I've noted the page numbers though..thanks.

Um, I'm thinking some sort of multi channel midi switchbox contraption is available so I can hook everything up at once? I hate switching stuff all the time.. that's my goal at work tonight..find one of these things.

did the pages pay off for you?

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 Post subject: Re: Sonar and midi
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:30 pm 
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weird...my post from yesterday came out after the one I just did.... :?: Maybe I hit edit accidently...

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