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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:21 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:44 pm
Posts: 12
Favourite food: Cheese
Machine type: AW1600
Greetings! I’ve used this forum as a non-member for a long while now and finally signed up in the hope you can help me with a problem (more of which in a moment)

I’ve used both the AW16 and AW1600 for years now for home recording but also (mainly) to supplement sessions from ‘proper’ studios. In-the-box recording like this allows me to add overdubs and ‘flourishes’ to a professional studio-recorded project at home or in another studio space and then drop them back into the session. I find I get better results with the looser, more experimental (“fun”) part of recording when I don’t have my eye on the clock and the budget. I started with the AW16 and loved it but found the lack of USB link-up an issue for larger tracks. Often I’ll be working on overdubs on a whole session of multiple songs over 90 mins or so as a single ‘song’ loaded into the Yamaha machine in stems, so it was becoming hard to export the files – and costly too in CDRs. So I upgraded to the AW1600 which is where I am now.

On to my problem:

The dreaded “HD Full! Oh I see” message!

I am working on a large project. A 90 min session where all 16 tracks are used up for the most part. I have 2 versions of this to try and keep the size down and the processing speed reasonably high when adding overdubs. One version shows as around 8GB and the other 4GB when looking at the song sizes on the AW1600.

I now need to export each mono track as a WAV covering the entire length of the project, each with the same zero start point. I’ve done this before without a hitch. It sometimes involves multiple exports to the Transport folder and onto my Desktop PC (followed by emptying the Transport folder) but it works.

I initially tried to do a bulk export of all tracks (exporting the current virtual track of “Tks 1-16” in one go). It said it was complete but when I checked the Transport folder I only had the first 4 tracks. So I went back to get the rest and got the “HD Full!” message.

Now, no matter what I do I’m constantly getting the HD Full warning.

It seems to me that the device thinks the drives are full because it hasn’t completed the initial action of transferring tracks. It got to Track 4 (of 16) of transporting, hit the capacity for the drive and it still thinks it’s at that point even though I’ve cleared space.

I have done the following to try and fix it:

    Optimise the 2 songs.
    Delete all other projects from the device leaving just these 2.
    Emptied the Transport folder and emptied the Recycle bin on the PC (just in case).
    Moved 1 of the 2 songs across to the ‘other’ hard drive in the AW1600 (I know it’s the same drive but it displays as 2).


The PC now shows both drives on the AW1600 as having plenty of room. But I still get the HD Full message and am trapped in a sort no-man’s land where I can’t get the files off the device in a usable format.

I have seen people make mention of this issue before and it be solved by the actions I’ve already taken or – in one case I found – turning the device off and leaving it overnight (!).

Does anyone have a fix for this?


It seems I have the following options:

Factory reset the AW1600 (I’ve backed up the project files on my PC), defragment the drives (by plugging it into my PC and using the Windows defrag tool – unless anyone has a better suggestion?), load the projects back in and pray it works.
Or
Buy/borrow another AW1600, load up the song projects onto it and hope it allows me to transport them.

Or (probably impossible)
Somehow find a way to use the raw WAVs in the project file even though they don’t have in and out markers or clear labelling. But there is a LOT of them and a quick listen makes me think it’s not really an option.

I need a way to get the device to recognise the free space on the drive OR I need a way to take the project files I have backed up and decipher them so I can line the WAVs up – either by using another machine or some other way of reading those audio files and organising them.

Otherwise I’ve lost a lot of work which I’m not sure I can face doing again…

Help!
Thanks,
Chris

*If this would be better placed elsewhere in the forum please feel free to move it*


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:24 pm 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:46 pm
Posts: 5190
Location: Netherlands
Favourite food: Ria's cheesecake
Machine type: AW16G
Hi Sumlin and welcome to the forum.

I'll delete the (identical) message in the other section as with the "view new posts" link members will see everything.

I have no AW1600 so I can't help with the problem but a few others can. So it is a matter of time before someone
comes along that actually knows what (s)he's talking about.

Off to the cheeseshop :)

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The proof of the cheese is in the eating


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:27 pm 
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Marker Magician
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Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3524
Machine type: AW2400
The size of the transport folder is limited. So its limit is independent of the actual free space on the drives. That is my understanding, based upon experience rather than a reference to the specs or manual. Not sure but it just a couple of gigs I think. I have had error messages that have been resolved by deleting already transferred/"leftover" files from the Transport Folder.

It seems you have been emptying/deleting files from the Transport folder, but make sure those first four files have been transferred and that the Transport is empty. that is what i would do first.

Not sure if I am talking through my hat here, but perhaps you could take the tracks off in digital format, through a real-time transfer to another machine via the digital outs.???

Another shot in the dark --- Does an EXPORT task show up in the Undo list?? If so "Undo" the EXPORT > ALL command ????

Stay in touch as you problem solve. I will put my thinking cap on.

I am sure a solution will arise. For sure the data is within the project files, but finding it would be a real marathon search i'd expect with lots of frustration and confusion built in. If the 90 minute session was loaded on to the 1600 as one file initially then one of the project files will be that. but if the 90 minutes is the result of additions to the original file, then it will be in pieces within the project files. overdubs will not be time marked etc. I would use the needle in a haystack approach as a last resort.

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Byron


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:19 pm 
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Marker Magician
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Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3524
Machine type: AW2400
Page 138 of the manual indicates that files over 4 gb can't be transferred to Transport, so the size limit may be that. There is also a clue on page 137 (item#7). It indicates that once an export process has begun it can't be aborted. Perhaps this, combined with a Transport file size limit might give a clue as to what may be happening in your situation??

I have had good luck restoring .AWS (projects) in the past. I have done some big ones, but perhaps not as big as your current projects. So as a last resort you may have to go that route??? DO NOT change any file names assigned by the machine. That will corrupt the file. If the proper names are restored, then the file becomes viable once again. Been there, done that.

The 16G had a limit on file size for projects. the 1600 does not have such, but seems to have a capacity limit on the transport folder as i noted above.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:41 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:44 pm
Posts: 12
Favourite food: Cheese
Machine type: AW1600
UPDATE

As I was driving home from work I had an idea - I attempted to export a 1 second chunk of a track. I figured this would be OK and - even if the machine was remembering my lack of space before, or it was stuck in a sort of loop having not exported the full 16 tracks when I tried before - it might 'jog' it free and allow me to start exporting the full length WAVs.
Amazingly, it seems to have worked... or at least it's exporting them now one by one.

I think if you try and do a bulk export into the Transport folder and the total size of those files exceeds 4GB then it won't work that out in advance and will get 'stuck' at the point where it reaches capacity of the folder.

I guess this is because the AW1600 is designed for songs rather than sessions - even very long songs don't create 16 WAVs that would exceed 4GB in total but a 90 min session might do. So I think if you're using the AW1600 this way, always export tracks one by one as the machine can decide it doesn't have room to do what is being asked and you can empty the Transport folder as you go without hitting capacity midway through an action.

Whether my 1 sec WAV export really did jog it back to life though I don't know...

Chris


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:17 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:44 pm
Posts: 12
Favourite food: Cheese
Machine type: AW1600
UPDATE TO THE UPDATE

Hit the capacity of the Transport folder, moved everything across to my PC and emptied the Transport folder on the device but the HD Full problem has come back. There is barely anything on the drive now.

It's a glitch in programming of the machine surely?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:55 pm 
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Marker Magician
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Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3524
Machine type: AW2400
let us know if your work around works a second time.

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Byron


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:15 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:44 pm
Posts: 12
Favourite food: Cheese
Machine type: AW1600
It hasn't - whatever made the machine suddenly realise it had enough space in the Transport folder, it wasn't me exporting a 1 sec file...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:59 pm 
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Marker Magician
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Posts: 3524
Machine type: AW2400
new situation for me. I have reached the Transport limit before, but it always worked to clean that folder out to create the necessary space.

Optimize and clear the undo list.

Make a dummy project and create a few seconds of tracking. Try to export this new track. see if the Transport folder will accept that ???

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:27 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:44 pm
Posts: 12
Favourite food: Cheese
Machine type: AW1600
Byron wrote:
new situation for me. I have reached the Transport limit before, but it always worked to clean that folder out to create the necessary space.

Optimize and clear the undo list.

Make a dummy project and create a few seconds of tracking. Try to export this new track. see if the Transport folder will accept that ???


I have tested exporting a few seconds of audio and it works so the Transport folder is operational - it just *thinks* there's no space. But there is.
Everything is optimised and no Undo commands are possible...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:26 pm 
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Marker Magician
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Posts: 3524
Machine type: AW2400
How big in MB are the files you are attempting to place in the Transport. How big a file might the transport accept?? I would be tempted to export them in the biggest chunks possible and then reassemble ???? outside the AW, if that is the only way to get the job done. These machines are tanks. There have been surprisingly few episodes like this over the years. Hope you can resolve this one

I might bet that a reformat will reset the Transport, but you don't want to lose your data, so stick with the search for a solution.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:39 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:44 pm
Posts: 12
Favourite food: Cheese
Machine type: AW1600
The files are each 432.3 MB in size so the Transport folder should hold 8 or 9 easily and that's what I've found in the rare moments the Transport folder accepts them. There seems to be no logic to when it decides it's full however. This evening I've tried deleting all tracks I've already exported and it worked briefly and allowed me to export a further 2 files but then the HD was full again. I remember reading on this forum that someone had fixed this problem by just leaving the machine off for a couple of days. That makes no logical sense but when I look at all the things I have attempted there seems to be nothing that has directly fixed the problem other than just time. Could it be that the machine resets itself after a certain chunk of time or re-starts and any error messages are wiped?

But - I think I'm going to have to reformat the drive...

I've backed up the entire contents (all Song folders and files within, Transport folder even though it's empty and the Lib folder) in 3 locations tonight and so I'm ready to do it. I'm guessing the best way is to defrag the drive via Windows by attaching to my PC via USB and then use the Initialize function from the Utility menu to set the drive back to factory setting?

Anything I need to be aware of?


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 12:51 am 
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Dude

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:44 pm
Posts: 12
Favourite food: Cheese
Machine type: AW1600
(also - I wanted to test drive capacity in other areas so I attempted to copy the full 4GB project and make a duplicate and it worked fine. Then as soon as I try to export anything from it it tells me the HD is full)


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 1:33 am 
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Marker Magician
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Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3524
Machine type: AW2400
If you have everything you need backed up, then go ahead and reformat. I am not thinking you need to defrag if if you are reformatting. I have done that several times over the years and no problems. It is a fresh start.

If the problems reappear then perhaps it is the HD itself. Never swapped one in an AW machine, but there are detailed instructions buried in the forum somewhere.

I think you are right about big files though. I too have had some very big files from choral concert recordings. Never had quite the issue you describe, but slower processing, disc busy messages etc.

I am not sure that a disc full error message really means the HD disc is full. I think when it is generated by the Transport at capacity it reflects that file's limit ( i think???) Or as i mused, maybe the old IDE HD that is crapping out. ???

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 12:00 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:44 pm
Posts: 12
Favourite food: Cheese
Machine type: AW1600
Quick question - do I need to back up the "Lib" library folder when reformatting the HD?


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 5:28 pm 
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Marker Magician
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Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3524
Machine type: AW2400
The Lib folder will contain setting you have created and saved for EQ, Dyn, channel stips etc. That is my understanding. I generally do not pay too much attention to it, but if you have done a lot of tweaking of presets and saved them you might want to preserve.

Good luck!! I am always nervous when i do the reformat, but it has always been the right thing to do and never resulted in disaster for me!!

Byron

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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:42 am 
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Dude

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:44 pm
Posts: 12
Favourite food: Cheese
Machine type: AW1600
UPDATE

I backed it all up, reformatted the internal drive, loaded it all back on and (thus far) it's working fine.

I think there is a file on the HD that deals with Data Management - it's called the SYS.BIN file. I think it got moved or corrupted somehow and was constantly reporting back the original HD Full error. It would explain a lot of the problems various people have reported with the HD Full message over the years - when you ask the AW1600 to export a track it's not actually checking the Transport folder and HD for capacity, it's telling you the info held in that file.

I think the way it's programmed means trying to export any single file exceeding the remaining capacity will generate a warning message, but any batch export that will exceed it in total doesn't, but the batch export fills the drive and cannot complete and creates a sort of loop where you can't fix it without reformatting it.

I now get a full 4GB of Transport space and no errors. So far anyway.


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:47 am 
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Dude

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:44 pm
Posts: 12
Favourite food: Cheese
Machine type: AW1600
Also - when you connect via USB the single drive on an AW1600 displays as 2 drives on your PC. I think the location of that SYS.BIN file is crucial. In the past I've solved any capacity issues by moving the various folders between the AW1600-1 and AW1600-2 portions of the drive figuring "it's all one HD, it won't make any difference" but I suspect it does.
The manual shows a file map for where things get stored and it shows that SYS.BIN file in AW1600-1 and I think moving that around between the 2 portions of the drive means the device can't find it to get a report on how full the drives are so it defaults to it's last known status of "Full".
If it happened again I'd try immediately backing up any projects not in use and removing from the AW1600 HD and then ensuring AW1600-1 drive contains Song1 and SYS.BIN and AW1600-2 contains Song2, Lib and Transport. I reckon that'd sort it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 3:37 pm 
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Marker Magician
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Machine type: AW2400
I have ever heard that specific an explanation, but it rings true. I had issues some years ago, thinking i could change a file name to give myself more info. I did this by altering a file name of an archived project which then did not match with a file within the project. When you tried to reload/restore the archived .AWS (project) file, the message came that the file was corrupt. Many hours of pondering, and perhaps some dialog on the forum did not solve the issue until I stumbled on the idea of making the subfile conform with the .AWS name. ( or perhaps I reverted the .AWS name back to conform with the subfile named within). this done though, the file once again behaves as it should.

Like i said, thes machines have been very reliable. I hope yours continues to give you good service.

Stay in touch now you are out of the woodwork. Post a portion of that big project so we can hear what you are up to!!

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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:42 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:44 pm
Posts: 12
Favourite food: Cheese
Machine type: AW1600
I'm not sure this is to everyone's tastes but this enormous double LP was tracked in the main on my AW1600. The drums were done to Cubase in a 'proper' studio and then the (literally) thousands of overdubs were added to many, many versions of the project on the AW1600. Each one was filled up, transferred and then the process started again. It made that laborious task pretty easy and ensured when we were recording we were recording as opposed to editing, fixing, and analysing as we would have done if we recorded straight into Cubase. I find the lack of visual info on the AW1600 as a real bonus to just getting stuff done.
The WAVs were then exported back into the Cubase project and the whole thing was mixed in a studio on the Isle Of Lewis in Scotland. Quite an experience...

https://kogumaza.bandcamp.com/album/fugues


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