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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 8:30 pm 
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Oldie Of The Month
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First, let me say that I'm no keyboard player. I'm a guitar player who dabbles on the keyboard. I also dabble on the mandolin, and on the harmonica. I dabble in singing, too. Now that I think about it, I'm not really a guitar player either.... ok, enough self-flagellation and disclaimers! Here's the question:

My keyboard has stereo outputs. If I only plug in the left, it's mono. (I assume they're all like that). Same with my drum machine. If I plug both into two heart-connected G inputs, and route to a stereo track, such as 15-16, what's the best way to handle the panning? Should the inputs be L16 and R16 respectively? Or put both to center? The G won't let you put both tracks to center, so I suppose you should leave them L16 and R16?

I suppose it varies whether you are playing a keyboard instrument, such as piano, that will be the main rhythm instrument, or a keyboard sound that will be an auxiliary instrument in the song. Because, if you record to a paired track with one L16 and the other R16, you're panning is limited; you can't, say, pan both to R6.

So... what I've concluded is: for piano, both inputs at C, and the two tracks at L16 and R16. For synth, record in mono to one track, so you can pan it where you want.

Does that sound right to the real keyboard players out there?

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:58 pm 
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Mr. Electonica Dude
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I pan my synths full L and R. You can adjust the pan settings either going in or mixdown by cursering to the virtual knob and turning the jog wheel. Although not in the manual you can quickly center a pan knob by highlighting it then hit enter. Boom ! instant center. My acoustic piano is recorded about 3 and 9 o'clock going in. It may be adjusted during mixdown if there is an unatural sounding "space in the middle". Here lately I've also had good results with omni or figure of eight patterns to add a little "room" to the recording. I even record my guitars and mandos in stereo as well as my amp is stereo. One mic infront of each speaker panned full L&R. Figure of eight ribbons work real good for this.

msg

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:15 am 
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Wants You
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Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the input pans only have an affect on what you are hearing? I'm of the belief that what gets recorded to each discreet channel would be controlled at the source, in this case, the keyboard.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:26 am 
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Mr. Electonica Dude
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So what you are saying is the input knob pan assignments on the G are actually monitor sends? I based my statement actually on the behavior of the 4416 (which I assumed to be similar) On the 4416 , the pan knob (or virtual pan knobs) control 11 different fader levels (and pan assignments) per channel . There are 8 aux levels , 1 input level , 1 monitor level and one send/return level. If the fader is up on the both the input and monitor channels , then a double signal is presented to the output meter during rehersal and recording. Also if the pan is set to full L on say the input level and full right on the monitor level then a mixture of the two will be produced in the monitors . If the monitor layer pan is rotated to the same setting as the input layer's pan knob then a single monitor will only produce the same signal.

The input gain on the G is controlled by the gain knob (or fader flip)
The monitor gain is controlled by the fader.

The 4416's input gain is controlled by the gain knob and input layer fader level(generally set at -3db)

Monitoring is done on the monitor layer fader level after the track is recorded. Otherwise the ST meter gets slammed by the combined signals.
Of course this distortion doesn't get printed but it's clipping the monitors none the less.

If I pan both inputs at center (say channel 1 and 2 ) and completely turn down the monitor level fader , then , again I will hear both channels at the same time in each speaker during recording or rehersal.

Then again , if you did record straight up and then panned mixdown (monitor) pans hard L/R , you should hear the true stereo image :scratch:

You do raise an interesting argument Bob , and I'm hard pressed to shoot any holes in it.

msg

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:15 am 
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Tenderfoot
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MSG thanks for the hit Enter to pan to centre tip - I didn't know that. A couple of other points on the G -

I believe the pan only works on playback. If you pan it right, say, then, when you have finished recording, you will see the pan has moved back to centre

You can pan the paired tracks both to centre. You can pan one with the pan knob. Then if you cursor over to the other channel icon in the pan screen, you can use the jog wheel to pan it to centre as well. I sometimes comp my final vocals to 9/10, both panned centre, so I can overlap the tail of one section with the start of the next and avoid joins.


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 Post subject: pan inputs
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 3:03 am 
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Bob Keelan wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the input pans only have an affect on what you are hearing? I'm of the belief that what gets recorded to each discreet channel would be controlled at the source, in this case, the keyboard.


No, the pan on the inputs *definitely* affects the levels. For maximum levels, you have to set them to center. If they are L16 and R16, the level will be much lower.

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 9:22 am 
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mrskygod wrote:
I've also had good results with omni or figure of eight patterns to add a little "room" to the recording. msg


What does "figure of eight patterns" mean?

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 2:45 pm 
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DenverRob wrote:

What does "figure of eight patterns" mean?


There are 3 major groups of mic patterns. Omnidirectional (all directions equally) , Unidirectional , (One direction pattern , cardiod , hypercardiod, shotgun mics) and Bidirectional , (two lobes opposite each other resembleing a figure 8 )

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 Post subject: synth lead
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:44 am 
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mrskygod wrote:
I pan my synths full L and R.


I assume that's for "rhythm" synths; strings, etc. What about lead synths? Or any keyboard sound that plays a similar role as a lead guitar, sax solo, etc.? Wouldn't you pan that only to one side or the other?

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:15 am 
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Depends on what type of lead patch I'm using. Basically a synth with only one note of polyphony , I record in mono straight up. My DS mono Evolver is capable of stereo effects so it is recorded in stereo. For true stereo going in I record full L/R. Patches like motion , sound effects , etc. almost always sound better in stereo.

RZ once brought up somthing that I was very guilty of early on. Panning everything pretty much equal (L7 / R7 or L16 / R16) on mixdown. The results? The big MONO! Now I try to pan some stuff on one side or another instead of "mirror" panning. One thing it helps some is clearing up an otherwise muddy mix. Sure EQ and dynamics also play a role but so does panning.

About the only time I record electric guitars in stereo is when there is an effect in the amp (like my Fender Cyber-Twin) or a stereo guitar (rickenbacker or ES345 for example). I do sometimes after doing a track , to copy it to an adjacent channel and add a touch of delay or EQ to "fatten" it up. Works on vocals too.

Playing Blues leads on my tube amp miced, I pan straight up.

My Hammond / Leslie is recorded nowdays with one mic full left or right and the other one set straight up. The one panned "counts" the horn rotor as it goes by and the mono omni mic catches the sound thrown around the room. Sometimes (if I have enough tracks) I'll add a third mic to count the bass rotor panned opposite the horn otherwise I move the omni closer in to pickup the bass rotor in the background.

Just really depends on what I'm doing.

msg

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