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 Post subject: Drum recording
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:19 pm 
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I just begin recording drums with the G. My questions are:
1) How can you record 4 or more tracks of drums when only two mic inputs are available?
2) Who makes a good set of mic's for drum recording and what is the price range?
3) How should I set up the mics?

Thank you in advance for your help, guys.

Leo


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 Post subject: Re: Drum recording
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:37 pm 
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leob wrote:
I just begin recording drums with the G. My questions are:
1) How can you record 4 or more tracks of drums when only two mic inputs are available?
2) Who makes a good set of mic's for drum recording and what is the price range?
3) How should I set up the mics?

Thank you in advance for your help, guys.

Leo


Hiya Leo,

1. I assume you are recording the whole band at once, and so only have two inputs left? You should probably overdub at least something so you can lay down at least the drums and bass first. The other option would be to get a small mixer and premix the drums and send them into the two available inputs and onto a one of the stereo tracks.

Or by "only two mic inputs are available?" do you mean you only have mics that require phantom power? In that case you would need to get a mixer or outboard pre to provide more channels you could use with condensors.

2. I'm not a big fan of drum mic sets so I'll allow someone else to answer this one. Get an Shure SM57 for the snare, that's all I'll say.

3. How many mics do you have to record with? If you have 4 you could try:
- one on the snare, one on the bass and two overheads, or
-one on the snare, one on the bass, one between the larger tomtom and the floor tom and one "overhead" or "room"

Don't worry so much about getting the cymbals, especially the highhats - they will sneak in through the drum mics.

This may or may not have been helpful - let me know. Can you give more information about the particulars of your dilema?

-paint

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:42 pm 
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I assume you are recording the whole band at once, and so only have two inputs left? You should probably overdub at least something so you can lay down at least the drums and bass first. The other option would be to get a small mixer and premix the drums and send them into the two available inputs and onto a one of the stereo tracks.

Well, not exactly 8)
I have recorded the voices from the ES onto the G already and now trying to get drums recorded to the already existing tracks.
On the G there are onlyu two mic inputs (XLR) available.
As a trial I had two mics connected to a pre-amp which is connected to the G.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:06 pm 
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You can run external pres for extra phantom inputs or a mixer as said earlier.

Although somewhat pricy , I bought this Audix drum mic set that I will connect to my 16G as a slave to the 4416 to do drums for a studio drummer I have hired for sessions.

Click on the Dynamic instrument mic pic. then Fusion 7 Thumbnail

What's cool about these mics is they are all dynamic except for the two overheads.


If I'm not happy with the Fusion set , I will go back to the Blue Kickball , SM-57 (snare) , Rode NT's for the toms and a Blue Bluebird and Baby Bottle for the overheads.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:13 pm 
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Good to see you Geno.
How would you connect the mics to the G? There only are two XLR inputs. Do you use any of the inputs using converters from XLR's?

Leo


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:32 pm 
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Zz-Sound is offering a drum mic set from Shure for $399 consisting of 3 SM57 and one Beta 52. Is that a good kit to start with and to get some experience?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:06 pm 
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That's not a bad price but I think 3 SM57's is overkill. You'd be better served with a pair of condensers for overheads.

Something like these:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?Pr ... icrophones


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:46 pm 
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leob wrote:
Good to see you Geno.
How would you connect the mics to the G? There only are two XLR inputs. Do you use any of the inputs using converters from XLR's?

Leo


Good to see you Leo.

The fusion set (or any dynamic mic ) is connected via an XLR/F cable to TRS male. (TRS G inputs 3-8) The condensers of course would use a std. XLR-F to XLR-M cable to the G inputs 1-2 with the phantom power enabled.

msg

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:00 am 
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Leo, I use a 4 mic set up, my latest incarnarion is to use two sdc mics for the overheads and put those into G inputs 1&2 to take advantage of both the phantom power and XLR in, I'm using Octava MK012's.

The under-snare (SM57) and kick (I think it's an AKG DM55) are dynamic mics that are plugged into 3&4 using XLR-TRS converters. It's a pretty low-fi set up but it's a start. I've got a small kit and wide stereo panning just ain't gonna happen.

I really like this quote from the HR site:

"With that type of mic setup, you are supposed to get the sound of the kit from the overheads and just use the kick and snare mics to add a little more uummmph! to the sound of the overheads.

If you want to micro-manage the drum mix, you need to close mic all the drums, a spaced pair of overheads and a whole bunch of noise gates. (and a decent drummer)"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:56 am 
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Quote:
get the sound of the kit from the overheads and just use the kick and snare mics to add a little more uummmph! to the sound of the overheads.


:thumbup:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:31 pm 
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I have a Fusion 6 kit, which is a step down (one less mic) from that Fusion 7 kit that Geno mentioned, and have been very pleased -- you do have to be careful with placement for the best sound, and my results have varied widely depending on placement. I know conventional logic is to avoid the "prepackaged" drum kits, but this one isn't bad.

Since there are only two condensor mics in this pac, you can hook up all the other mic's in the kit with 1/4 plugs. They don't need the phantom power.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:59 pm 
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Wow.
You guys are great. Thank you much for all the information. I let you know how far I made it and how good I did it 8)

Need to look through catalogs and magazines.................... :?
Thanks again guys.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:10 am 
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One other thing Leo, once you get your tracks down you'll want to time align them. I usually use a simple mathematical formula of 1ms delay per 1ft of distance. For example my snare mic is directly under the head, the kick mic is 1ft away from the batter head and the OH mics are 3ft away from the snare head. I therefore insert 1ms at the begining of the kick track and 3ms for the OH. It really increases the punch factor. Props to the JM for encouraging me to finally getting around to doing this.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:12 am 
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CareyCorson wrote:
I have a Fusion 6 kit, which is a step down (one less mic) from that Fusion 7 kit that Geno mentioned, and have been very pleased -- you do have to be careful with placement for the best sound, and my results have varied widely depending on placement. I know conventional logic is to avoid the "prepackaged" drum kits, but this one isn't bad.

Since there are only two condensor mics in this pac, you can hook up all the other mic's in the kit with 1/4 plugs. They don't need the phantom power.


Do you have or are using the D-Vice , mounts with your set ? I went ahead and bought 4 of them for the toms and snare mics.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:57 pm 
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mrskygod wrote:
Do you have or are using the D-Vice , mounts with your set ? I went ahead and bought 4 of them for the toms and snare mics.


No, I was just using the mounts that came with the set. These mounts look cool. I'm currently not in a situation where I am recording any drums, but as soon as I do, I think I will get some of these clips. That will certainly allow me to get a good placement on the mics.

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To attain wisdom, remove things every day. Lao Tse.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:59 pm 
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Mr. Bill,
I was wondering about that and that would be my next question. I am reading a lot at this time about setting up the mics for drum recording and Shure has some very good articles on that.
Do you guys lay down the drum tracks first or do you work similar or like me by laying down all other voices first? Just curious.
I f I use a time delay, would that not eventually kick me in the butt because no one is so perfect to match the metronome all the time. Then it only takes a few ms and it sort of sounds messed up?

Leo


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:18 pm 
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leo - what Mr. Bill was referring to has to do with the fact that the drum sounds hit different mics at different times. For example, the snare mic picks up the snare instantaneously, but the overheads pick up the snare a few ms later. If you time align the different drum tracks after you record the drums, it can improve the clarity of the drum sound. You are basically moving a track forward or backward so that the snare sound is lined up in both the snare and overhead tracks.

You can either use the 1 ms = 1 foot rule and calculate how much time to add or delete (depending on how you do it), or you can look at the wave view of a single snare hit (for example), see where it is at in the snare mic vs. the overheads, and figure out how much to adjust that way.

When I did this, I used two overheads, kick and snare mics on the drums. I aligned the kick and snare mics to the overhead. Think I wound up inserting about 3 ms to the snare mic track and 5 ms to the kick mic track. You could hear a small but noticeable improvement in punch/clarity of the drum sound overall. It all helps, right?

This is a trick that was discussed in Recording Magazine a year or two back. The gent who wrote the article also suggested reversing the phase of everything but the kick mic to account for the fact that the kick mic is getting its initial sound from the drum head moving toward it, whereas the snare and toms (either top miked or in the overheads) are the opposite.

Whew!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:24 pm 
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Interesting stuff here...........thanks JM :lol:


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