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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:53 am 
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Lava Boy
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What's so interesting about The Edge's guitar delay?

Most of us won't ever play in a U2 tribute band or try to cover a U2 song in the studio, but discovering how The Edge uses his 'trademark' guitar delay is not limited to that. How his delay sounds and how he uses them are a great resource for any serious guitar player. If you're happy with just plugging in a digital delay pedal and tapping it in time with the song you're playing, then you probably won't care to read much further. I put this page up for the people who realize how much difference the attention to detail can make and who won't ever be happy getting things '95%' right.

The most common question posted about U2's sound on websites and chatrooms devoted to that subject is "what is The Edge's delay setting on Where the Streets Have No Name?". The usual answer is "set it to 3/16 tempo, about 340-350ms". (The same answer is roughly given for questions about any of their songs actually). So out of curiosity, I studied the audio tracks closely and calculated the exact settings he used for that song and others and I found out that the real answer is a little more interesting. That's good news though: maybe the reason that The Edge sounds a little better than you when he plays 'Streets' is because of his 'secrets' that are revealed here. Hopefully it will help you think a little bit differently about how you use delay in your own songs.

Note: This page is strictly limited to discussion about The Edge's delay times. Occassionally I mention other things like the modulation effect of the SDD-3000 delay unit and I include some tablature as needed.

The Edge usually uses 2 different 'types' of delay in any given song: short (reverb-ish) and long.

The Edge's usual signal path:

Guitar --> [some effects] --> short delay(s) --> [other effects] --> signal split to A/B:

(A) --> long delay #1 --> amp #1 (usually a 1960's Vox AC30)
(A / B are sometimes panned left/right)
(B) --> long delay #2 --> amp #2 (usually a 1960's Vox AC30)

Note that The Edge also seems to use a good compression on his guitar. That's a key piece to getting the delay
to sound right. I won't discuss it much more here, but it's probably used on almost all of the recordings.


Disclaimer:
The above is a generalization. See the pages for each of the individual songs for specifics.

Futher, for the purposes of these pages, I'm not really concerned about his signal path. I presented the 'evidence'
for the types of delays he's using - where, when, how long for each of the songs.
From that, I reconstructed what I think would be the most likely signal path.

And also, for the most part, I only studied the album recordings. For any given tour, he may change his setup.

 The short delay / Reverb (5-20ms, 3-4 repeats) is not audible to the naked ear as a delay. The Edge uses it to thicken and warm his guitar sound.

In all cases, the short delay is earlier in the signal chain than the long delays. (Since Edge usually uses 2 long delays at a time in a song, then if this were not true and the short delays were placed after each of the long delays, then his initial attack would sound muddier since there would be more than one short delay units hitting right after the attack- one from each of the long delays' signal chains).

For the short delays, the settings rarely need to be changed and he appears to leave it on all the time.

Occassionally, Edge chains 2 of these short delays together - see 'Wire' or 'Bullet the Blue Sky'. Also, occassionally, Edge doesn't use this (at least with as noticeable an effect) - see 'All I Want Is You'.

Arguably, the 'short delays' could be reverb that was added post-production to the final master track. However, note how similar the short delays in 'Wire' (where it's obvious the delay times were specifically set) are to the other songs (say 'Streets' live) in the waveform graphics that I posted for the songs. Whether the short delay/reverb was added for most songs post-production, though, I don't know.


Update: There are some people who claim that the 'short delays' I propose he uses are caused by either his guitar picks or room echo. Both are possibilities, here's more info. Discussion of Edge's guitar picks is out of the scope of this discussion, but I'll mention it as it could relate to a 'delay' effect:

For the guitar picks: Edge's guitar picks (Herdims) have a dimpled half and a flat half. The dimpled half is supposed to be where you hold the pick (it gives it a better grip). Apparently Edge holds the pick either backwards or sideways so that the dimpled part of the pick grates the strings, causing what some have suggested could create the 'short delay' sound (its main effect is to sharpen the sound and give it a slightly grating punch - what some people call a 'chime' sound.) I studied the effect of the Herdim dimpled picks on a guitar signal and I posted the results here. The result: the Herdim picks are not the cause of the 'short delay' effect.

Further points: The short delay effect is very consistent during a given song. For instance, it's exactly 4-5 repeats and they're all the same speed (5ms or 20 ms). A pick effect would not be as precise. Further a pick effect would be more consistent from song to song, whereas I hear a much longer 'short delay' during Streets (20 ms) and it varies from song to song. Incidentally, people have emailed me saying that Edge started holding his guitar pick backwards because he never had any formal training and had been doing that incorrectly from early on. He was using the Herdims at least by the Unforgettable Fire, and perhaps earlier.

For the room echo: This may well be a good argument. I think room echoes tend to have 1 bounceback and then get muddy. The short delays I hear are very precise. I don't know though. It's possible this could be a room echo. Listening to the effect in live recordings maybe a good clue (for instance, I heard the same 20ms short delay in the Streets record version as in the live version). But recording in a good room that gives a good echo is about the same as having an echo pedal, so I'll leave that for someone else to decide.
 The long delays (150ms-550ms, almost always set in tempo with the song) make up a big part of Edge's sound. He uses modulated delays which add a vibrato/chorus effect to the delay repeats. In most songs, he uses 2 long delays in parallel set to different tempos and sends them to different amps, as in the diagram above. Occassionally (such as in 'Streets'), he chains the 2 long delays together so that the later delay is fed the delay repeat (wet out only) of the first delay.

His Korg SDD-3000s are mostly used for the long delays. Though the SDD-3000 is a digital delay (it allows you to exactly dial in the delay length which is crucial), the modulation section of it adds a nice warmth. He splits usually his signal at the end of his other effects chains and runs it into 2 SDD-3000s. Those feed directly into his amps (usually Vox AC30s). One reason he does this is to make use of the +10dB output on the SDD-3000s, as Daniel Lanois explained in the quote below.

Quotes about Edge's delay:
 "Yeah. I started using them [SDD-3000s] shortly after first working with Edge on The Unforgettable Fire. Basically, I stole his sound. It wasn't a complicated rig: just a guitar he liked through a Korg SDD-3000 digital delay into a Vox. Three components, mono - that's it. The great thing about the Korgs is its three-position level switch, which lets you hit the amp with about 10 extra dB. It's more overdriven than if you just plugged the guitar straight into the amp, even when it's on bypass. But a lot of the guitar sounds on Achtung Baby were recorded through a Korg A3 effects processor." - Daniel Lanois, 'Guitar Player', 1993 ('U2 Producer & 6-String Wizard Daniel Lanois Says You Don't Need Big Money To Make Big Music')

 "Everybody's going to remember your songs, it's just that nobody's gonna be able to play them" - Bob Dylan (in reference to Edge's delay-ridden riffs)

 "... I became the timekeeper with the band for a while, and Larry would play to me, because everything had to sync with my echo- you can hear that is "Pride," for example. Eventually we made a decision to leave out the echo on War, and the guitar became much more dry and forceful. That sound reappeared, in a sense, on Unforgettable Fire, because of the Hawaiian guitar [a 1939 Epiphone Electar lap steel, as heard on 'Surrender'], but in any case, the guitar treatments almost always came out of things that I was doing." - The Edge, 'Musician' magazine, 1986.





The Songs and their Delay Settings



Boy (1980) / October (1981)

Edge used a 225ms delay (1-2 repeats, slightly audible) for all songs on the 'Boy' tour and for most of the 'Boy' and 'October' albums. During this time, he used an EH Memory Man Deluxe, which has a range of 5ms-550ms.
 225ms (used most of the time) is at the 3rd 'mark' out of 8 total on the delay knob, clockwise from the bottom (40% of the knob's full turn).
 140ms (used for the album version of An Cat Dubh/Into the Heart) is at the 2nd mark (25%).
 280ms (used for the album version of The Electric Co.) is at the 4th mark (50%).
 360ms (used for Stranger in a Strange Land) is at the 5th mark (65%).
(Note the similarity between the intro to Stranger and In God's Country).
War (1983)
 Edge's delay wasn't used much on this album (see the above quote from 'Musician' magazine)
The Unforgettable Fire (1984)
 Pride (includes an updated 'demo' mp3 with the delay before/after)
 Wire
 Bad (includes a 'demo' mp3 with the delay before/after) - NEW / Updated
The Joshua Tree (1987)
 Where the Streets Have No Name (includes a 'demo' mp3 with the delay before/after) - NEW / Updated
 I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For
 With Or Without You
 Bullet the Blue Sky
 In God's Country
Rattle And Hum (1989)
 Silver and Gold
 Heartland
 All I Want Is You
Achtung Baby (1991)
 One
 Until the End of the World
Zooropa (1993)
 Zooropa
All That You Can't Leave Behind (2000)
 Walk On (includes a 'demo' mp3 with the delay before/after) - NEW Songs that use 3/16 delay *:
Electric Co / The Cry (280ms) (See note on left side)
Stranger in a Strange Land (360ms)
Surrender slide solo (400 ms)
A Sort of Homecoming (375ms)
Pride (425ms)
Wire (317ms)
Bad (467ms) See the '2 delay' section below
Still Haven't Found WILF (450ms) See the '2 delay' section below
With or Without You (410ms)
In God's Country intro and solo (360ms)
Heartland (420ms)
Silver and Gold (360ms)
All I Want Is You (425ms - almost 3/16)
Even Better TTRT (345ms - louder during slide solo)
Until the End of the World (420ms)
The Fly solo (415ms)
Walk On (420ms) See the '2 delay' section below
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own (475ms)
City of Blinding Lights rhythm guitar (320ms)

Songs that use 4/16 (1/4) delay:
New Year's Day chorus (450ms)
Acrobat (450ms)
Do You Feel Loved? (520ms)
Beautiful Day guitar (440ms)
Miracle Drug intro (480ms)

Songs that use 2/16 (1/8) delay:
Gloria solo (205ms)
Bullet the Blue sky 'Slane Castle' solo (410ms)
Exit (250ms)
Beautiful Day piano (220ms)
Original of the Species piano and guitar panned right (340ms)

Songs that use 1/16 delay:
An Cat Dubh / Into the Heart panned right (140ms) (See note on left side)
J. Swallow lead guitar panned left (150ms)
Bullet the Blue Sky (200ms)

Songs that use 2 separate delays (signal split to 2 amps):
Bad (note: see this page for more info):
'- 3/16 (467ms) and 3/32 (221ms)
Indian Summer Sky:
'- 2/16 (215ms, panned right) and 3/16 (320ms, panned left)
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For:
'- 1/16 (150ms, panned right) and 3/16 (450ms, panned left)
Walk On (note: see this page for more info):
'- 2/16 (290ms, panned right) and 3/16 (420ms, panned right)

Songs that chain together 2 delays:
Streets: 3/16 (350ms) with later repeats at 3/32 (175ms)
Zooropa: 2/16 (320ms) with later repeats at 1/16 (160ms)

Earlier songs with a generic 225ms 'slapback' echo:
11 O'Clock Tick Tock
I Will Follow
Out of Control
Rejoice
With a Shout
(See note on left side)

Songs with 'random' delay times:
Fire (260ms, 1-2 repeats, ~146 bpm = 5/32)
4th of July (440ms, 6-7 repeats, ~115 bpm)
Until the End of the World solo (500ms, 1 repeat, 102 bpm)


* What is a '3/16' delay (or 1/16)?

Edge almost always has his delay times in tempo with the song. His favorite setting is '3/16', which is where the delay length is equal to 3 '1/16th' notes. This setting works very well if you're playing straight 1/8th notes, which Edge does often (such as 'Streets') since the 3/16th delay will fall in between the notes you play. It also adds depth to straight 1/16th note riffs (such as 'Pride').

If the song is 100 beats per minute (bpm), that means that there are 100 quarter (1/4) notes per minute. For example, at 100 bpm:
 Each 1/4 note lasts exactly 600 milliseconds (600ms = 60 seconds / 100 bpm).
 Each 1/16th note would last 150ms (150ms = 600ms / 4).
 And a 3/16th note would last 450 ms (450ms = 150ms * 3).
There's 2 simple 'shortcut' formulas for calculating the delay time when you know the tempo of the song:
 1/16 = 15,000 / # of bpm.
 3/16 = 45,000 / # of bpm. (Testing with the example above: 45,000 / 100 bpm = 450ms which matches the above calculation).



What are the best delay effects units available now?

Edge historically has always used the Electro-Harmonix Memory Man Deluxe (Boy and October albums) or the Korg SDD-3000s which were made in the mid-1980s and are occassionally available on eBay (though at high prices often). Since the Joshua Tree, he's also used two TC Electronic 2290 delay racks since they have more user presets than the SDD-3000s.
Today, the Line 6 Delay Modeler units are undoubtedly the best delay available. (Edge has been seen using one of them in 2004.) The 3 models are:
 Studio / Rack version: Hard to find, I'm not sure if they are still available. $700 US. Sometimes available on eBay. This lets you dial in specific delay times, has 99 user presets, and is MIDI-controllable if you have a really clever rig.
 DL4 stompbox: Has a Loop option and 3 presets. $250 US.
 Echo Park stompbox: No presets, but has the same sound (I believe) as the other 2. $150 US.
In any of the units, you should use the 'Digital' delay setting for long delays. And most important - use just enough 'Mod' so that it's audible but not overpowering. The Echo Park stompbox has a nice option, the 'Dotted 8th note Tap' (3rd option up from the bottom left). This is the 3/16th note delay that Edge so often uses. In this setting, tap the stombox to the beat/tempo of a song and then the delay repeats will be at 3/16.

Note: for shorter delays - 5-20ms - it might be best to use the Analog delay with no Mod setting. For long delays, Digital with Mod. Of course, just a suggestion.



tdarling@amnesta.net
Your Comments
Hi...and thanks for all your precious study about edge's delay effects. I've been very involved to learn how edge create his own special delay set-up. I've tried on my set-up and ...wow sounds great!! I'm trying to focus my attention during these years on the EQ that Edge always use on his sounds...a sort of mid boost type I guess... Did you try to study also the EQ'ing in the future? I hope so ... Thanks again for all your work. Regards Fabrizio from Italy

-- Landini Fabrizio, Oct 26, 2004
You have done incredible job studying Edge's sound! Thank you very much for this interesting article!

-- Karppinen, Finland, Nov 14, 2004
Like the rest, i'm very pleased with your work and the fact that you have made an effort to share it. Your work has been very helpful! Regards from jonathan in spain.

-- Jonathan Chhugani Mena, Nov 22, 2004
This is the website ive been waiting for. This site has helped me get just the right delay and sound i needed. awsome job thanks alot!

-- Austin Hinegardner, Nov 27, 2004
very impressive. must say i never expected this to be so complex. good work. it seems to me though, that in, i suppose what you'd call the "solo" of "one" at the very end (from about 3:35 to the end), there seems to be the 3/16's delay. its also very noticeable on the slane castle dvd.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:13 pm 
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Tenderfoot

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Hi Scooter B,

Thanks a lot for your posting. Lots of great info there that I'm sure I'll be using when the time is right.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:57 am 
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Tenderfoot

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:22 am
Posts: 475
Hey Scooter B,
That is really awesome! Fantastic research. Takes a big fan to do something like that. Bravo!! I am a big U2 fan too. And I think Edge is just brilliant. Maybe this calls for a "fans of U2" thread! :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:13 pm 
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Lone Star

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:09 pm
Posts: 6
Hi Scooter.. I take it you are Tim Darlings nom de plume...if you aren't...perhaps you could give the guy credit for reposting all the work he listed on his web site...oh and if you aren't Tim...perhaps you would remove his email address from your post....



it is a great piece of work...and all credit to the guy who did it...and then posted it for the world to benefit...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:43 pm 
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Guitar Ho
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To most of us, though evidently enough not all, it was obvious that Scooter found a gem on the web and put it up here for our benefit. The fact the email link is there is to indicate from where it had come.

One of things we have built in this community is a body of information that is freely available on the web so that it is all in one place. Sometimes it's just a link, and sometimes, as in this case, it is so extraordinary it's worth posting here in its entirety...very often we find sites have a real shelf life and they disappear.

I don't wish to speak for Scoot, but I will speak to his character. If you believe that he posted this as plagerism to his own credit, you have misinterpeted his intent.

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 Post subject: Amen DC
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:51 pm 
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The General

Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:20 pm
Posts: 3870
Amen to that DC.

Scoot is aces around here. You'll be hard pressed to find a nicer, more genuine guy.

Torby- First off, welcome to the forum....I think. Real humble and respectful 1st post dude. Fire, ready, aim, eh? That might get you far some places, but probably not here.

There was clearly no intent to plagiarize, evidenced by the inclusion of the author's e-mail addy.....which by the way must have already been in the public domain.

Chill dude!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:51 pm 
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Lone Star

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:09 pm
Posts: 6
"If you believe that he posted this as plagerism to his own credit, you have misinterpeted his intent."

your words not mine...

"The fact the email link is there is to indicate from where it had come. "

some people don't cut and paste very well.....


"One of things we have built in this community is a body of information that is freely available on the web so that it is all in one place. Sometimes it's just a link, and sometimes, as in this case, it is so extraordinary it's worth posting here in its entirety...very often we find sites have a real shelf life and they disappear. ".....

at least give credit to the original author then...why no mention of his name, his website...and the extraordinary lengths he went to , to create this fantastic aid to guitar playing....

after all the article is written in the "first person", and it speaks about other pages and "tabs" and various other tools useful in creating the sound of the Edge...so tell the whole story.

"To most of us, though evidently enough not all, it was obvious that Scooter found a gem on the web"...

DCinFrance...don't adopt such a condescending tone towards a poster, I may only have 1 post to date compared to you as I have just joined but I am pretty sure if I pass on some tips from this forum...I would tell people where they came from...

Read my post again...I'll summarise...

If you are not Tim...give him credit
If you are not Tim...remove his email address
If you want to be helpful...post the link to his site

and as regards how difficult or rare the information is...do a google with the phrase "the edge guitar sound"...it'll be the first hit that comes back...do yourself a favour DC stop all the back slapping of your mates, get on with recording and be sociable to new forum recruits (we all know what happened to the last aw forum)...and if someone deserves credit...give it to them


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:55 pm 
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The General

Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:20 pm
Posts: 3870
torby wrote:
"If you believe that he posted this as plagerism to his own credit, you have misinterpeted his intent."

your words not mine...

"The fact the email link is there is to indicate from where it had come. "

some people don't cut and paste very well.....


"One of things we have built in this community is a body of information that is freely available on the web so that it is all in one place. Sometimes it's just a link, and sometimes, as in this case, it is so extraordinary it's worth posting here in its entirety...very often we find sites have a real shelf life and they disappear. ".....

at least give credit to the original author then...why no mention of his name, his website...and the extraordinary lengths he went to , to create this fantastic aid to guitar playing....

after all the article is written in the "first person", and it speaks about other pages and "tabs" and various other tools useful in creating the sound of the Edge...so tell the whole story.

"To most of us, though evidently enough not all, it was obvious that Scooter found a gem on the web"...

DCinFrance...don't adopt such a condescending tone towards a poster, I may only have 1 post to date compared to you as I have just joined but I am pretty sure if I pass on some tips from this forum...I would tell people where they came from...

Read my post again...I'll summarise...

If you are not Tim...give him credit
If you are not Tim...remove his email address
If you want to be helpful...post the link to his site

and as regards how difficult or rare the information is...do a google with the phrase "the edge guitar sound"...it'll be the first hit that comes back...do yourself a favour DC stop all the back slapping of your mates, get on with recording and be sociable to new forum recruits (we all know what happened to the last aw forum)...and if someone deserves credit...give it to them


Do we have an ignore button? Jeez!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:05 pm 
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Lone Star

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:09 pm
Posts: 6
OK...fair enough...apologies all round....grovel grovel to the inner sanctum...etc....etc....

ignore my posts.....feel free....read the forum guidelines...I didn't slag anyone off...I wasn't abusive to anyone (unlike the condescending responses so far)

all I asked was give someone credit for a lot of hard work...wots the problem?


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 Post subject: Better ways to do this
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:12 pm 
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The General

Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:20 pm
Posts: 3870
torby wrote:
all I asked was give someone credit for a lot of hard work...wots the problem?


There are better ways to accomplish this....especially for someone new to a forum.

Maybe you could have sent Scooter a PM? But instead you call the guy out with your first post? Then follow up with some backhanded lame quasi-apology. Doesn't make sense torby, does it?

I'd start over if I were you.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:25 pm 
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Lone Star

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:09 pm
Posts: 6
Hello, my name is Torby...I've been using my AW for nearly 18 months now and I'm thinking of upgrading to the 1600...can I play with you guys?


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 Post subject: Much Better
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:44 pm 
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The General

Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:20 pm
Posts: 3870
torby wrote:
Hello, my name is Torby...I've been using my AW for nearly 18 months now and I'm thinking of upgrading to the 1600...can I play with you guys?


Welcome to the forum Torby.

:D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:46 pm 
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Lone Star

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:09 pm
Posts: 6
Thanks Bartman.....look forward to getting my hands on an AW1600 cant wait for the old USB interface....ooooo and pitch correction as well....roll on Xmas....


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:05 am 
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Lava Boy
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Torby yes this was a cut and paste and I thought it was quite obvious. I suppose I should post a disclaimer on the top of any similiar postings to avoid confusion.

I have no idea what "
nom de plume" refers to but welcome to the forum and take time to get to know everyone.

Thanks to those who have my back on the forum when I am not around.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:24 am 
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Lone Star

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:09 pm
Posts: 6
Cheers Scooter....love your signature by the way....


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:00 am 
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Guitar Ho
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nom de plume...a name you offer in place of your own for that which you write...a pen name.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:14 pm 
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Lava Boy
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Thanks DC and welcome TORBY,

Come on in and play.

BTW for future reference virtually anything I post here that is informative, well thought, free of spelling and gramatical errors, educational, involves mathmatics (as in delay times) or otherwise usefull information for music and recording will be something I learned elsewhere and I am sharing information I though was really cool or usefull.

I always try to give credit and a link when I do those but I don't always have all the information in my collected documents. If you read my DIY monitor stand project that was somewhat original I gave credit to all sources I borrowed from or were inspired from.

My original stuff will have lots of typo's and a mysterious green text from time to time when I mess up the syntaxt somehow.

Cheers Torby and welcome again. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:24 pm 
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Guitar Ho
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Yup, ol' Scoot can't spell for shit...dead give away. :lol:

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