The DijonStock Digital Home Recording Support Forum

*** USER REGISTRATION DISABLED! FOR ACCESS TO THE BOARD, MAIL TO registration AT dijonstock DOT com. THANK YOU ***
It is currently Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:23 pm

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:20 pm 
Offline
The General

Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:20 pm
Posts: 3870
Thinking out loud here:

Been listening to forum member tunes lately with lots of concentration on vocals.

My favorite vocal tracks seem to have one element in common......the emotion is conveyed.

Sometimes I concentrate so much on the technical aspect of recording, I forget that I am also the performer. When I get caught up in the technical nits I tend to sing rather than perform. The end result is a poor performance > poor vocal track > song not as good as it should be.

Does that make sense?

When I give my favorite vocal tracks a critical listen, I hear notes that can use pitch correction, I hear effects that don't sound so great and other flaws....BUT............the performance is excellent and when I'm listenin to the song, I look past the nits.

If I'm real honest with myself, I think I've delivered a decent vocal performance on about three of the last 30 songs I've written. I'm just singing on the rest....maybe even decent singing, but not a good performance. Big opportunity area for me.

Your thought(s) on the subject?

Gary


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:35 pm 
Offline
Robbie The Botkiller
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:46 pm
Posts: 5048
Location: Netherlands
Favourite food: Ria's cheesecake
Machine type: AW16G
Yes it makes a lot of sense.

One has to realise that being a performer is something totally different than being a technician or a producer. Ask yourself what you want to be - what touches your heart?

_________________

Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:38 pm 
Offline
Former Computer Geek
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:39 pm
Posts: 1556
Location: Tacoma, WA---Ghetto-licious!
Favourite food: Pizza, E.Coast plz!!
Machine type: AW1600
Hi,
Bob Dylan, Sonny Bono, Neil Young, Mick Jagger... all pretty bad singers technically. However, they all had some charm that grew on the masses and lifted them to legendary status even. So it's for sure you don't have to be a great singer to make satisfying music. Apparently what does it some other intangible. Is it the emotion? The personality? The outfit? Dunno. Music has this strange way of getting into that area where it's hard to know what's causing responses.

With recording I think a great recording has to be viewed against what you're capable of doing and trying to get it a little better than last time. Most of us can't compare to a world class singer. It has to be sung at your particular best AND convey the song properly. Otherwise I'd say it's just a recording, which many times is good enough for government work. So it's rare and not easy, as evidenced by your 3 out of 30 Bartman. That's probably about the right ratio for me too and I am working on that too.

A trusted musician friend of mine ragged me about just this two days ago. He said I was holding back in order to deliver a more technical product, taking very little emotional risk in the performance. He's always right so I'm on it. But then he can sing his ass off so easy for him to say! LOL... (he did all vocals on this song for me if you're interested --- Your Man ) He's played with many people you all know and knows what he's talking about so I'll listen. I think he would agree with you Bartman that converying the emotional aspects are first. Technical second. I think they both have to be there at the highest possible level, for a particular performer, to call it a great performance.

I don't think I could listen to a track that I sang out of pitch that was full of emotion for very long. If I could sing it better technically and keep the emotion, I'd want both! :)

-= Beer

-= Beer

_________________
I LOVE THIS!!! Ted Stevens, 82-year-old US Senator from Alaska and chairman of the Senate Committee on Science, Commerce and Transportation, for explaining in a speech how the Internet actually works: “It’s a series of tubes.”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:50 pm 
Offline
Spacemonkey & Superstar

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:36 am
Posts: 1584
Favourite food: Marmite/beans/toast
Machine type: AW16G
Personally I am a bloody awful singer so I don't bother with thinking about the technicalities :-)

For me its just a question of not over-analysing and sort of just going for it.... which it has to be said doesn't work a large percentage of the time :-)

It helps if I write down the lyrics first and have time to work out what the hell it is I'm meant to be going on about - I tend to see songs as shapes - with smooth bits, spiky bits - undulating areas of doubt and uncertainty etc which link into emotion and emotional content - lyrics are there to accentuate the shape and do not therefore need to be exact in their mapping to story - as long as they help with the general picture - err - thats a bit pseuds corner isn't it :-)

Richard

_________________
"Riding a motorcycle looks cool and all - but no-one messes with a man riding an elephant"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:18 pm 
Offline
Marker Magician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3395
Machine type: AW2400
Every song tells a story, (not only ballads), - getting the story across genuinly is important to the performance.

from the technical angle - finding the correct mix to allow the vocal to sit in a sweet spot so the listener doesn't have to work too hard to get the story, but ensuring the vocal is not too far out front as to be over bearing - that is a challenge.

An arrangement that leads (hooks?) the listener and avoids losing the listener due to needless length and repitition helps deliver a good vocal performance too.

Three out of thirty may not be so bad as you suggest. Not recognizing there are three that stand by themselves as good performances - that would be the mark of a bad producer.

_________________
Byron


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:50 am 
Offline
The General

Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:20 pm
Posts: 3870
sleepless wrote:
I tend to see songs as shapes - with smooth bits, spiky bits - undulating areas of doubt and uncertainty etc which link into emotion and emotional content - lyrics are there to accentuate the shape and do not therefore need to be exact in their mapping to story - as long as they help with the general picture - err - thats a bit pseuds corner isn't it :-)

Richard


Makes complete sense to me. That's what I'm trying to achieve.

I'd also submit that there are times when my song or arrangement is substandard and it doesn't lend to a good vocal performance.

Like the old saying "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig." Well....it's a saying here in Texas anyway....
:P


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:52 am 
Offline
The General

Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:20 pm
Posts: 3870
Byron wrote:
from the technical angle - finding the correct mix to allow the vocal to sit in a sweet spot so the listener doesn't have to work too hard to get the story, but ensuring the vocal is not too far out front as to be over bearing - that is a challenge.


Amen that!

Byron wrote:
An arrangement that leads (hooks?) the listener and avoids losing the listener due to needless length and repitition helps deliver a good vocal performance too.


Agree. Before I read this I made a similar statement in the reply to Richard's post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:35 am 
Offline
The General

Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:20 pm
Posts: 3870
Beerosaur wrote:
I don't think I could listen to a track that I sang out of pitch that was full of emotion for very long.

Better throw away all your Rolling Stones, Neil Young & Dylan records ! One of my favorite Stones LP's is "Black & Blue". The feel of that LP is great and Jagger's vocals sound almost intentionally out of tune.

I understand and agree with your post. BTW, very good post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:32 am 
Offline
Mr. Electonica Dude
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:48 am
Posts: 11452
Location: Godly Taxas
Favourite food: Frog Legs
Machine type: AW4416
Playin on a recording and playing live are day and night. If you make a mistake on a recording , it's heard forever if not corrected before mastering . When playing live everybody either doens't notice it or has forgotten about it two bars later.

I guess that's why I like classic Negro church gospel music. When it's live it sounds like a recording and the recordings sound live. Another example would be great orchestra music.

Ponder that Senor Gary.

_________________
THE MUSIC IS DOWN IN HERE
____________________________________________________

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:49 pm 
Offline
Review Guru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:12 pm
Posts: 1156
Location: Connecticut
Favourite food: Vegetable Lasagne
Machine type: AW16G
good thread Gary.
For years I've been working on the courage to let it rip but
I always hear my playback at half attempts sounding like a 12 year old girl so...
sometimes a 15 year old boy, too.

I guess it's never gonna happen unless you just rip into and not give a flying fudgesicle..

Even with mistakes and all that...I agree, a passionate free for all beats out a bullshit rob thomas all the way, every time!

Pss...fuckin ROB THOMAS... :frank1:

_________________
http://joelbooska.wixsite.com/thevideofringe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:18 pm 
Offline
Wants You
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:52 pm
Posts: 5281
Location: Hamilton Square, NJ
Machine type: AW16G
I remember reading a Geoff Emerick interview years ago where he said he was always very careful to have enough reverb in John Lennon's headphones while tracking his vocals. He said if you didn't get a keeper in the first or second take with him you wouldn't capture the performance. That struck a chord with me that I always try to keep in mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:22 pm 
Offline
Review Guru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:12 pm
Posts: 1156
Location: Connecticut
Favourite food: Vegetable Lasagne
Machine type: AW16G
Bob Keelan wrote:
I remember reading a Geoff Emerick interview years ago where he said he was always very careful to have enough reverb in John Lennon's headphones while tracking his vocals. He said if you didn't get a keeper in the first or second take with him you wouldn't capture the performance. That struck a chord with me that I always try to keep in mind.



Bob, was this from that 'Behind the glass' book by any chance?

_________________
http://joelbooska.wixsite.com/thevideofringe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:32 pm 
Offline
Wants You
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:52 pm
Posts: 5281
Location: Hamilton Square, NJ
Machine type: AW16G
It very well might've been Joel. Or it could've been Geoff's book that came out a few years ago. Or it could've been an article in EQ or something like that. I religously read anything that has Geoff's name attached to it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:41 pm 
Offline
Forum Poet
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:38 am
Posts: 4024
Location: atl ga
Favourite food: fresh
Machine type: AW16G
i like to stand on a box with a hot cheese log down my pants

_________________
"Let there be bass." - Leo Fender


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:58 pm 
Offline
The General

Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:20 pm
Posts: 3870
mcnewsxp wrote:
i like to stand on a box with a hot cheese log down my pants


You are a sick fecker Mac........but I like sick feckers. :twisted:

So, you aight in my book.
:lol:

Bartapolopagustavo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:30 pm 
Offline
The Reverend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:45 am
Posts: 4051
Location: dusty border town
Favourite food: cheddar-lol
Machine type: AW16G
mcnewsxp wrote:
i like to stand on a box with a hot cheese log down my pants


you've gotten conservative in your old age Mac....loosen up!

Whatever happened to the days of cattle prods and cheap Zinfandel?

_________________
it's funny, the older you get, the older you wanna be


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:25 am 
Offline
Forum Poet
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:38 am
Posts: 4024
Location: atl ga
Favourite food: fresh
Machine type: AW16G
Quote:
cattle prods and cheap Zinfandel


that'd be for bvox

_________________
"Let there be bass." - Leo Fender


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group