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 Post subject: My G's bizarre behaviour
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:01 pm 
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Dude
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Anyone ever had an experience like this?

Today I imported a wave file onto tracks 3 & 4 with the intention of adding some backing vocals on another track.

I went through the procedure without any problem; recording a vocal to track two and mixing the track to appear in the right of the mix and at a lower volume than the main mix. All of this using headphones as a monitor.

So, when I feel ready to record the result I hook up, as per usual, to my PC, boot up Audacity and run the mix with Audacity on record.

The bizarre thing was that despite the fact the mix in the headphones clearly has my backing vocal, the recorded mix on Audacity doesn't.

So, I spend an hour looking for some option I might have accidentally clicked on. Have I selected a virtual track etc? No sign of any problem. Then the truly bizarre issue. I tried taking the output from the headphone socket and feeding that into the PC. Had to adjust volumes a bit, but it was recording, then along comes the chorus and .... no backing vocals. But that should be impossible, surely? I unplug the connection to the pc and plug in the headphones and there are the background vocals as clear as day. But they don't want to leave the G, for some obscure reason.

Any advice (or spells for banishing gremlins, etc)

Bones festes from Catalonia


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:49 pm 
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Spaminator Extraordinaire
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Hello. Just curious to understand your terminology. When you say mixed the vocal to the right, did you actually use the pan feature?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:17 am 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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Must be a panning thing. Are your cables in good working order? If a connector is misfitted the signal might go to both ground and signal input of the headphone/PC/whatever it is you connect it to. Things that are panned in the middle will cancel itself out under certain circumstances. You can check this by panning the vocals hard left and the rest hard right, and with another run do it the other way around.

What I describe here is the unintentional karaoke generator. Most vocal tracks of professional productions are panned in the middle with no phase shifting. That means when you take the right channel and substrac the left channel (or the other way around) you won't hear anything that is in the middle of the panorama. You WILL hear everything that is not in the middle, or to which a phase shifting is applied.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:53 am 
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Hi,
while Robbie's suggestion about panning/phase cancellation is correct, this kind of problem usually happens with some weird reversed (balanced?) cable, but all analog outs here are unbalanced. Another kind of phase cancellation can happen inside mixing board, but for total absence of a track sound its exact clone (with phase reversed) should exist.

I bet on something else - assuming your AW machine and cables are technically OK - there is some difference in analog outputs:
Phones and Monitor Outs should always put out the same mix.
Stereo/Aux Outs put out the same sound as Phones/Monitor only when they are set to STEREO. If they are set to AUX then you have different mix there :!:
Push PAN knob and check AUX/STEREO setup.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:15 am 
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Dude
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RZ - Yes, I meant that I panned the background vocal and then lowered its volume using the mixer. As I said in the opening post here, in the headphones the mix is perfect, but then the other channel (new recording) is not being added to the mix leaving the Stereo Aux Out.

What is bizarre, however, is that if I feed the headphones mix into Audacity directly via the headphone socket then the background vocals disappear from the mix. How is that possible?

I'll try the other suggestions later. I have to take my daughter to the station right now.

Thanks for replying people!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:23 am 
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Dude
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PS After I posted last night I re-recorded (an entire new recording) the backing vocals onto track one. I thought it might be that I had selected something by accident in the track menu of track two when I did the panning. However, the problem has not gone away. Neither track one nor two appear in the output mix. Despite the fact that both appear in the headphones mix. I really am beginning to believe in gremlins (of the 1940s variety). :?: :D


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:47 pm 
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Marker Magician
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Sounds peculiar, to say the least. As said, the AUX Out/stereo Out designation needs to be checked. If you are sending AUX signals to Audacity then the levels are independent of what goes to the stereo bus, via the faders. If the Aux/Stereo Out is set to Stereo, then there is no question that the overdubbed tracks should be there, no matter what way you take out.

Make(record) a mix, rather than sending to Audacity during a playback. Set your G to play back the stereo mix. Are the overdubbed tracks there in the recording? If so, Send that 2-track stereo mix to Audacity, via Phones/Monitoor Out or Stereo Out.

I have had tracks that disappear before, but never quite as you describe. That always had to do with overlapping editing regions, was the best guess of the collective minds on this board.

It does not seem plausible that something that is audible in the cans would not get to audacity.

You could try a headphone splitter. Listen on one out, send the other to Audacity. If you can hear it, it would be really weird if Audacity didn't.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:57 pm 
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Dude
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Thanks Byron. You mean do a mixdown on the G itself, don't you? I never thought of that. #-o Truth is I have never had to do it before! I'll give it a go and let you know.

Now, where have I stored the pdf with the manual :-"


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:06 pm 
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Now, where have I stored the pdf with the manual :-"[/quote]


i know where it is ..... :-k

the last place you left it :lol: ... look under the pile of papers on your desktop .... :-k

it sounds to me like the stereo output box must be checked off before trying to record outputs of track #2 ...

it may be an overlooked detail probably fueled by seasonal holiday liquid refreshments (?) ... :)

good luck

mark


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:06 am 
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Yes,mix down the tracks and record the mix. The button you need is in the lower left area, but I can't recall its exact name. You need to arm the machine, telling it to "REC" the mix.

Once that is done you can listen to the mix>>> you use the "Monitor" button to toggle to a screen that shows the stereo track utilities and meter.You have to click a button on that screen.

Any problems >> speak up >> someone will educate you.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:17 pm 
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OK.... I got some time to try out your suggestions today. Now, get ready for this, guys, you are not going to believe it, but I swear it is true.

I found my PDF instructions and followed them to the letter to Mixdown onto the stereo track. In the headphones the Stereo Track clearly had the backing vocals. I knew I was listening to the Stereo Track because I had selected it and lowered all of the mixer sliders to zero and could still hear music. So, I thought, that's it, cracked it. Jubilant, I connected the G to my PC and ran Audacity. Pressed play to play back the Stereo Track... and.... the background vocals were not in the mix going to Audacity. But how is that even possible? The only volume raised on the mixer is the main stereo track - so that must be the only feed and in the headphones that has clearly got the background vocals. So, why is that not getting out of the G?

Once again I tried the expedient of connecting the headphones socket directly to the PC - so in theory it should have been recording exactly what I have been hearing in the phones. But no, it records the basic track but no backing vocals.

So, not a guy to give up easily I put aside that song for now and tried to start afresh.

Same procedure, I recorded an MP3 into tracks 3&4 and then added fiddle onto Track one using a microphone. The fiddle is clearly there in the mix on the phones. But when I attempt to record the mix to the PC the fiddle disappears. I tried the same mixdown procedure and the results were exactly the same.

This is getting so frustrating!!!

I have been so happy with the G since I bought it off a friend, but now I am beginning to doubt the wisdom of the purchase.

Pity, I was hoping to lay down the basic tracks for our band's next acoustic album on the G. But I can't trust the G while it is full of Gremlins!!!

Any further suggestions?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:24 pm 
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This feels a lot like that guy who wanted to record vinyl records. Hmmmmm!

What is described seems hardly possible.

Try sending just the fiddle out through the phones jack. turn the other tracks off for now.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:36 pm 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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Did you SAVE the song after the last mixdown?

I've had that experience a couple of times, making a mixdown, burning to CD and hearing the former version. Forgot to save after the latest mixdown and before burning to CD.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:11 am 
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Berni_Armstrong wrote:
Pressed play to play back the Stereo Track... and....




Any further suggestions?


What did you do before pressing play, to play back the stereo track? Did you use the Stereo Track Screen (MONITOR button) to turn on the stereo track? You must do this before you are able to actually listen to what you recorded during the mix-down. Sorry if you have done this and thought it unnecessary to list it as a step that you took, but you had been quite meticulous in reporting your steps and if you did not take this step you will never hear a 2-track of what you recorded.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:20 am 
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Byron wrote:
What did you do before pressing play, to play back the stereo track? Did you use the Stereo Track Screen (MONITOR button) to turn on the stereo track? You must do this before you are able to actually listen to what you recorded during the mix-down. Sorry if you have done this and thought it unnecessary to list it as a step that you took, but you had been quite meticulous in reporting your steps and if you did not take this step you will never hear a 2-track of what you recorded.


Hi Byron. I did indeed select the Stereo track using the Monitor Button.

As I stated in my last post, to prove I was hearing a mixdown and I had actually recorded one, I turned down the faders on all 16 track and still could hear the mixed down track. But that mix was not making it out of the G onto Audacity. That's what is so weird.

I did an electronics apprenticeship as a young man and I know that what I am describing sounds impossible. Nevertheless it is what I am experiencing and I am now at my wits' end.

I'll try just feeding out the fiddle and see if that works.

Robbie, do you mean did I save the entire song? I dont usually do that until I am closing down or changing the song I am working on. I have still got the song with the fiddle open.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:49 am 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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In that case you will always get the mixdown that you performed prior to the latest save. So, whatever you change or add, it will not have any effect on the track that is written to CD. The machine will write the version that is actually in the saved song (hard disc) to CD. So, yes, save the song entirely.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:01 am 
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Ay, Robbie. That didn't make a blind bit of difference, I'm afraid. ](*,)

And I am not going mad. I just tried an experiment. I ran the headphones socket directly into the line in of my little Zoom Handy Recorder (H1) and the mix it recorded did not include the fiddle. However, if I simply put the headphones directly on the H1 (as if it were my head) and record that I get the correct mix, but at terrible quality, obviously. :?

I can even prove that - is it possible to upload short mp3s to the forum? If so, how do I do that?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:02 am 
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I'm sure it is something very basic happening here. But I also think you are not giving us complete information, because we gave you more than enough suggestions already and I kind of think you haven't done your homework yet :roll:
So, let's start again:
1. All mentioned OUTs are ANALOG. See the difference in my 1st post. If other songs on your machine are working ok on all outs (l and r), then NOTHING is wrong with them.
2. Did you try another cable pair to computer? Are you sure BOTH l and r signal come to Audacity and NOT ONLY ONE of the channels?
3. And- are you sure your settings in Audacity are correct (stereo, not 2 mono files-possible phase problem again)
4. It is also possible some strange setting with phase or aux is part of your scene, so save song scene (if you need saved settings at all) and then recall Init scene 00 (reset scene). Repeat whole recording procedure to Audacity.
5. Read all posts once again :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:18 am 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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Berni_Armstrong wrote:
I can even prove that - is it possible to upload short mp3s to the forum? If so, how do I do that?


I have every faith Dejan is right in stating it must be something basic.

If for whatever reason you want to put some samples on the forum, go to this section:

viewforum.php?f=84

And start a new topic there. In the text editing screen you will see an option that allows you to upload files. The server limit is 50 MB per file, so more than enough for mp3 files.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:19 am 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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Oh and when you find the solution... thát's the moment you'll get mad... for overlooking something simple.

Has never happened to me :liar:

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