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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:19 am 
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Refresh my memory of your view Robbie. Why are those two bits missed by peaking at -12 the "most significant' bits?

I know we have had this discussion before, but i never feel as if i totally understand. i remember asking this very question "how hot?" to a professional digital sound editor I met some years before i started meeting you people. I was working with a two track DAT machine and i really didn't understand the difference between DAT and conventional analogue tape technology. But i had heard digital distortion with my own ears, which prompted me to want to know why/ how to avoid it.

The answer then was connected to utilizing the available bits - but since then my reading and my experience has led me to appreciate the utility of headroom when combining tracks in a multi track recording project. the logic of proceeding conservatively re: pushing the gain, seems to preserve "space" to allow further signal processing and to ease/facilitate the leveling and balancing of tracks in the creation of a mix that "works". Mixing is all about achieving balances through manipulating dynamic and frequency characterisitics through compression/expansion and Equalization .

The article's analogies relating to cooking and the avoidance of "over-cooking" make intuitive sense to me, but the whole bit depth, resolution thing seems sensible too.

Is increased resolution achieved more by bit depth or sample rate? I'm still learning!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:40 am 
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Byron, for me it is to learn as well. I'm "supposed" to be a technician who should be able to comprehend this kind of knowledge, but I must be missing a vital piece of information that makes me go "A-HA!".

The number of bits determine how precise each measurement in the sound signal is. Every bit doubles the number of possibilities, so every bit doubles the signal to noise ratio. In a post from some time ago I explained why every bit has an added dynamics of 6 dB. Every added bit can make the coil of your speaker move twice as far without compromising the precision.

So, using a 12 dB headroom will make a signal peak at -12 dB, only to use the 14 lower significant bits. To explain a little further:

In the decimal system we count:

0
1
2
3
4
5
etc.

In 16 bits, we count:

0000000000000000 = 0
0000000000000001 = 1
0000000000000010 = 2
0000000000000011 = 3
0000000000000100 = 4
0000000000000101 = 5

etc, until

1111111111111111 = 65535

The rightmost bits are the least significant bits. The one on the right has weight 1. The second from the right has weight 2. The next has weight 4. Etc.

When you apply a 12 dB headroom you will only go as far as

0011111111111111 = 16383

So, recording in 16 bit (no headroom), every sample will be rounded off to one of 65535 discrete levels, and recording using 14 bit (12 dB headroom), every sample will be rounded off to one of 16383 discrete levels. Headroom usually is applied by pulling a fader down or turning a preamp knob anticlockwise so the signal will still fit in the range. However the noise floor will not go down with it. Detail in the sound will get lost as in the mix, the quantization steps will be 4x as far apart.

OK so this is the theory. According to many sources I must be missing something.

One question. Imagine having a signal on track 1. I can control it's volume in the mix by pulling or pushing the fader. I also want to apply a little reverb. The reverb is an effect that is added to the signal. Which one comes first before the result is put on the bus - the fader or the effects?

EDIT: you can find the older post here: http://forum.dijonstock.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=11561

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:57 am 
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I'd say the (inserted) effect comes before the fader.

Of course signal can be sent to an an effects bus, and that can be pre or post fader.

in either case the effect pushes the level of the stereo bus. ???

does the actual dynamic range of a recorded track, as determined by the utilization of theoretical bit depth, matter if the track works well with the other with which it is being mixed, and therefore does not require any make up gain and so the noise floor remains "out of the picture"?

Got to go play hockey now, so i will check for further ideas when i get over being creaky and stiff!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:45 am 
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Byron wrote:
I'd say the (inserted) effect comes before the fader.

In that case I can understand why you'd want to have headroom, because going from a clean signal to a signal with effect will add a few decibels. To me it would explain a headroom of let's say 3 dB because the signal with effect should still be able to fit into 16 bits.

If the effect comes after the fader this argument doesn't count, pulling down the fader a bit creates the headroom for the effects processor not to clip.

Byron wrote:
does the actual dynamic range of a recorded track, as determined by the utilization of theoretical bit depth, matter if the track works well with the other with which it is being mixed, and therefore does not require any make up gain and so the noise floor remains "out of the picture"?

That is an importaint point in the discussion. If you record peaking at -12 dB and you use 4 tracks per channel you will get close to 0 dB anyhow. That's why I said that the discussion becomes less relevant with a larger number of tracks, because no make up gain is needed, just as you stated.

Byron wrote:
Got to go play hockey now, so i will check for further ideas when i get over being creaky and stiff!!!

At least you get to play hockey at 2 am. Oh...

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:37 am 
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I won`t lie, I am lost in the intellect (it does`nt take much) I can explain in very simple terms why I record at -12db.
If I have a problem with my plumbing and decide to do the job myself, I don`t take advice from a carpenter I ask a plumber.
So if people that have been working in the industry say that is the way to do it, then for me that is the way to go, after all that`s how I came to be on this forum in the first place when looking for advice, and I would love this forum to be the only forum in the world where everyone agrees on the correct way to go about digital recording, but I doubt that will happen :)
I`ve also sent emails to some top studios all over the world looking for and sometimes got advice, I admit some also told me to get stuffed :)
Enjoy the rest of your day guys.

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:00 pm 
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I understand where you're coming from Mac and I respect that fully. However for me, personally, that would be very unsatisfying as in your analogy I'm supposed to be able to be the plummer.

I don't know how consistent the analogy with the plummer will be comparing the knowledge and experience when going deeper into the craftsmanship. I have a basic understanding of the principles of plumming (and zero skills) and I know there is a lot to know. Same thing goes for recording. There is a lot to know and I don't want to give the impression that I think I know it all. Neither do I want to be stubborn as I know that is what I am by nature.

What counts for me, being very important, is that I want to fully understand. As long as I don't, I have the feeling I don't understand at all. This comes along with my slightly autistic nature.

By throwing the bat in the hen house I hope to come across someone who will tell me exactly what goes wrong when recording at -0 dB.

Apologies if I make anyone feel uncomfortable. That is not my intention. I just want to understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:20 pm 
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Well you don`t make me feel uncomfortable Robbie, and as for having an autistic nature I can relate to that because my son, who is now 29 has Aspergers Syndrome and was diagnosed when he was 2.
If I remember correctly in the link in 60`s guy`s first post, it said that when there are tracks that have been recorded at a higher level it is harder to make them blend together or maybe I read it elsewhere, all I know is that like 60`s guy I`ve tried it and it makes it so much easier to get a good solid mix, I go by my ears because that`s what I`ve always done, but I understand that you need to know the why`s and that`s fine by me, it`s just that I cannot even paint by numbers and for me the 0 `s and 1`s thing would make a glass eye go to sleep :)
Enjoy the rest of your day Cheesemeister.

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:41 pm 
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This line of information seems to , once again, support the premises we often put out there - "less is better" ( to a point) but more importantly "use your ears". ----> Structuring the gain will help us find the "sweet spot" for the sound source we are attempting to capture. This is ultimately a judgement call, which will vary depending on the engineer's taste, the genre of music, which carries with it the expectations of the public who will ultimately consume the product. Expectations fuel the production process while product competition/comparisons fuel the consuming public's expectations for the genre they are paying to hear (or not paying to hear in the file sharing world). Vicious circle?? ----> at it's crudest this is the "volume war". I made this point in an earlier thread re: setting compressor makeup gain/ratio/threshold/knee- be careful about making judgements without paying attention to relative volume levels. Loud will always be perceived as "better" (to a point), at first. Most listeners don't get much past this level of "arbitration", so it is the production team's job to give them a product that feels "satisfying", without the need for ear blowing volumes in aggressive genres or in more melodic/orchestral genres, sections that feel as if they "dropout".

The following excerpt is from the article, whose link Randy provided earlier in the thread. IMHO, the analogies presented make sense.


So - You have a microphone and a preamp going into a converter or sound card. Those converters are calibrated at LINE LEVEL. In most cases, over the last several years, most I've seen are calibrated to -18dBFS = line level (or 0dBVU). In other words, if you run a steady signal (a sustained note on a keyboard for instance) through a preamp and turn up the preamp gain until the VU meter reads 0dBVU, at the converter (and on the active track in whatever program you're using the record), it will read -18dBFS (or -18dBFS(RMS) -- full scale, but measured over time).

THIS IS WHERE YOUR GEAR IS DESIGNED TO RUN. This is where it's spec'd at. You will have a decent amount of headroom, the lowest distortion, the best signal to noise ratio, etc., etc., etc. around this level or lower. Some gear - usually very high-quality stuff, has a good amount of usable headroom above this level. A lot of "budget friendly" gear does not. So all of this advice is *more* important if you're using "okay" gear at the input. EVEN YOUR DIGITAL CONVERTERS are ANALOG components up to the converter itself. They don't want to be "beat up" all the time either.

Let's look into headroom -- Above that 0dBVU/-18dBFS range, digital headroom is simple -- Perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect, CLIP. The signal is "what it's supposed to be" until the point of failure. Analog gear (your preamp, compressors, outboard signal processors, etc.) isn't like that... It's more like "Perfect, a bit unfocused, a little noisy, "tight" sounding, spectrally distorted, CLIP. The converter's job is simple - Reproduce the signal it's fed digitally - whether that signal is clean and dynamic or distorted and squishy. The analog chain's job is anything but -- Typically, you're adding 20, 30, maybe 50dB of gain to the incoming signal with a mic preamp. The preamp is working - not just "passing" the signal. And that signal can start to suffer from noise, distortion and dynamically dependent (varying along with volume) spectral imbalance (a skewing of the overall spectrum from an EQ standpoint).

In other words, a nice, thick, chunky guitar tone (for example) might have different characteristics depending on how hot the signal is. The highs might be open and airy and then the signal gets loud for whatever reason and the highs either get swallowed up, or perhaps get very harsh and strident. In any case, it's an inconsistency that isn't' there when the levels are more "normal." Even though the analog gear probably has spec'd headroom well above digital's full-scale, it doesn't mean that signal actually has the integrity it should up to that level. Your car isn't happy running *just short* of red-lining RPM's either.

So what happens is simple - A signal is recorded that's too hot (usually to "use all the bits" ....). It overdrives the input chain not unlike a guitar preamp overdriving a Marshall stack (well, not that much, but the premise is the same). Now, after all the other tracks are recorded, ALL of them need to be attenuated by 12, maybe 15dB or more so the mix doesn't clip. Those distorted, spectrally questionable, squishy, noisy tracks all get turned down.

Are you seeing my point yet?

When you take a steak and cook it until it's burnt, it's burnt. If you pour ice cubes all over it, it doesn't make it more rare - It makes it a cold, wet, burnt steak. No matter what you do, it's still burnt. Just like if you record too hot.

But if you cook a steak a little too rare, you can always heat it up a bit later. You can microwave it without it turning into leather. You can pan-fry it for a few minutes and it's still a tasty, savory piece of steak.

Another applicable analogy: You're a photographer and you have a camera with a lens that can take in 51,000 lumens before it'll melt the image sensor. You want to take an intimate photo of a mother and her newborn baby in a small room with rich, deep earth-tone colors. Are you going to light that room with a 50,000 lumen carbon-arc spotlight? Or perhaps a few soft, incandescent lamps and maybe a candle or two might capture the intimacy and emotion a little better...

Point is, when you use up all your headroom right away, you don't get it back by turning it down. It's gone forever. Sure, you can increase mix headroom or the headroom at the buss - But it's not going to make the track less distorted or fix the skewed S/N ratio.


For me this has been a very useful discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:53 pm 
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Ooh that's quite a read Byron - I'll pee first. And then I'll take the time to read thouroughly. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:58 pm 
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My 2 cents: Granted you have no control over a hot recorded track. If you record and it bounces over 0 causing distortion, then yes, you get a bad sound. Been there done that. As for headroom, as long as my ceilings are 8' tall, I have plenty of headroom.

Seriously, I understand those that need to go by the numbers. Playing by ear has always been my way around music, so listening and keeping levels around -6 have worked.

Just make music!

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:33 pm 
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Everyone does realise that the excerpt of the post that Byron put in his post, is the same as in the very first post in this discussion right??
I mean we have all read it have`nt we?? :wink:
I agree with Byron the analogy is spot on.
Reminds me of a link that Ron put up a while back of a thread from another forum, the way the guy (YEP) lays out and explains things is quite brilliant and it`s actually quite a famous thread now known as the YEP THREAD, Google it, it`s also available for download since someone took the time to compile it all and put it in a zip file, an excellent read.
p.s. found the thread

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php? ... e3&t=29283

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:33 pm 
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That is quite the marathon read. I will definately read on as time allows.

Has anyone here read the whole thread?

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:41 pm 
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I`ve read it about 12 months ago, it`s really easy to skip bits of it at the start but I would recommend not to, the way that this guy puts it down makes it really to understand and it just seems to sinks in, knows his stuff, no-one knows who he really is but he does say that he has been involved in recording in top situations, I still flip back to it now and then.
Enjoy.

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:47 pm 
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T.Mac. wrote:
Everyone does realise that the excerpt of the post that Byron put in his post, is the same as in the very first post in this discussion right??
I mean we have all read it have`nt we?? :wink:
I agree with Byron the analogy is spot on.
Reminds me of a link that Ron put up a while back of a thread from another forum, the way the guy (YEP) lays out and explains things is quite brilliant and it`s actually quite a famous thread now known as the YEP THREAD, Google it, it`s also available for download since someone took the time to compile it all and put it in a zip file, an excellent read.
p.s. found the thread

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php? ... e3&t=29283

T.


pdf file link below:


http://stash.reaper.fm/v/3107/wdyrsla_061709.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:53 pm 
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I read it, Byron. Thanks for putting it up.

I now have two options.

1) Let it be, accept the 12 or so dB headroom and keep my peace.

2) Take the time to explain exactly why this article does not answer my questions, running the risk of not being read and being seen as the stubborn guy, while my point is still not understood. It'll take me a few days to explain thouroughly and I can save myself the trouble if option 1 is preferred.

Again, to me it's not about being the guy who is right. It is about being understood and above all it's about understanding. I will read the other articles.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:00 pm 
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bokchoy wrote:


Thanks for that, Bok. I think I need to study this document thouroughly. I do like page 101 which kind of has my point.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:13 pm 
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I don't see any problem recording with nearly 0db or - 12db, because I don't hear any quality difference to be true. Specially the live recordings of my band have all different levels and it is no problem to get a decent mix down with this different tracks.

Why don't stop thinking about this theoretical sound differences with more of less bits and bytes and start making music :-)

Andreas

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:18 pm 
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That would be the sane thing to do, but I can't... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:18 am 
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Blackbeer wrote:
I don't see any problem recording with nearly 0db or - 12db, because I don't hear any quality difference to be true. Specially the live recordings of my band have all different levels and it is no problem to get a decent mix down with this different tracks.


My levels too usually end up all over the map. As Andreas says, it is very possible to get decent mixes. He is also right about the need to make music rather than spending too much time debating.

Like Robbie has expressed, I would like to understand the "best" way to proceed, realizing it is not the "only" way. The author of the "yep" post makes an important point when he wrote about getting the job done. So you don't have to go searching ( should you be interested ) I have copied that section from the PDF that Bok posted of the oiginak thread, from another forum

Finished vs. perfect

Recording, like any process that is both technical and creative, is a state-of-mind
thing. Any single aspect of the process has the capability of being either a launching
pad or a stumbling block to better records. Experience brings a sense of proportion
and circumspect “big picture” awareness that is hard to get from reading
web forums and eq recipes.
It is important to work fast. Finished is always better than perfect. Always. In
more ways than one. For one thing, you will change your mind about things as
the recording develops. There are a thousand steps along the way, and if you get
too stuck on one, you lose your inspiration and sense of proportion, you'll get
frustrated and your ears will start to burn out, and you will start to hate the song
and the sound. Recording it will start to feel like a chore and a burden and that
state of mind will show in the finished product, if it ever gets to that state. More
likely, the project will become a half-forgotten waste of hard disk space that never
gets completed.
The best way to work fast is to take as much time as you need to get ready for recording,
before you actually start the creative process. This is actually a big problem
with new clients in professional studios – they show up late, with worn-out
strings and drum heads, out-of-tune instruments in need of a setup, they're hungover
(or already intoxicated), they only got four hours sleep and haven't rehearsed
or even finished writing the material, and so on. This is frustrating but
manageable for the engineer to deal it with, it simply means that the client is paying
for a lot of wasted hours to restring their guitars and so on. The engineer can
take care of the setup for the first day or two and then get on with the business of
recording.
In a self-produced home studio setting, this approach is fatal. If you're trying to
write the song, learn the part, demo plugins, set up your instruments, figure out
your arrangements, and mix each part as you go, you will spend two years just
tracking the first measure*.
So the next couple of posts are going to deal with methods and techniques designed
to get you moving fast and making constant progress, and also with figuring
out when you've stalled out. The whole idea is to keep the actual recording
process a primarily creative and inspiration-driven one, and to separate, as much
as possible, the technical aspects that a dedicated engineer would normally perform.

Setting specific goals

The best way to make sure that you are always making forward progress while recording
is to set specific and achievable goals for each session. In other words, if
you have three hours to record tomorrow, decide in advance what the “deliverable”
will be, as though you were answering to a boss. ....

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:38 am 
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T.Mac. wrote:
Well you don`t make me feel uncomfortable Robbie, and as for having an autistic nature I can relate to that because my son, who is now 29 has Aspergers Syndrome and was diagnosed when he was 2.
If I remember correctly in the link in 60`s guy`s first post, it said that when there are tracks that have been recorded at a higher level it is harder to make them blend together or maybe I read it elsewhere, all I know is that like 60`s guy I`ve tried it and it makes it so much easier to get a good solid mix, I go by my ears because that`s what I`ve always done, but I understand that you need to know the why`s and that`s fine by me, it`s just that I cannot even paint by numbers and for me the 0 `s and 1`s thing would make a glass eye go to sleep :)
Enjoy the rest of your day Cheesemeister.

T.

I hope that I didn't upset the apple cart here, but I did want to get everyone thinking and discussing something that had been discussed here before. As I said....food for thought.

The article I linked to has everything to do with recording at 24 bit, but when I had read it it got me to thinking and I lowered the recording levels on a few tracks to keep them at peaking to no higher than 12 dB.

I still use the G (16 bit). Mathematically.....I probably could have gone with 9 dB. Food for thought.....again.

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