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 Post subject: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:42 am 
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Time and time again I read the suggestion that you should record every individual tracks at -6 dB. There was a time when I thought that was the right approach.

http://www.massivemastering.com/blog/in ... Levels.php

Read the article.....especially if you are recording at 24 bit.

I had learned for myself (latest project/unfinished) that recording individual tracks to peak at no higher than -12 dB (even at 16 bit) was an improvement over any thing I had ever recorded before especially when mixing multiple tracks.

Food for thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:10 pm 
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Yes hitting -12db is about right, but hitting -6db now and again is fine, the optimal level is -18db but that is RMS, so hitting peaks at or around -12db is spot on.
I know of people who have one of the Yamaha desk that still strive to hit 0db because they can`t get their heads around the difference between the old analogue scale and the full digital scale which is what the Yamaha`s have.

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:27 pm 
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One of those people would be me. If you peak at -12 dB, you're using 14 bits out of the 16, (or 22 of the 24), leaving 2 bits unused, losing a factor of 4 in accuracy. Why would Yamaha make a machine that actually samples and stores in 16 bit when the way to go is to use only 14?

Now, why would anyone peak at -12? Because in the mix, they tend to amplify each individual signal louder than anything else. Each track should be louder than all the other tracks. Each frequency should be louder than all the other frequencies.

Record peaking at -0 dB. Then, feel free to use a new concept: pull the fader down!

A practical problem is that people think they record peaking at 0 dB, but they're actually clipping because you can't check everything.

And besides, when you combine more tracks (you're adding signals when you're mixing), this becomes less and less relevant: two tracks peaking at -6 dB will peak 0 dB when added together (and the peaks occur at the same time).

So, a theoretical approach would be to record peaking at 0 dB to get the signal as clear as possible, but substract 3 dB for every doubling of the tracks used.

This is my story and I'm sticking to it like a chunk of fine aged Gouda.

[sheldon cooper mode off] :)

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:57 pm 
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I`m afraid it`s one of those conversations on forums that never ever get anywhere because people work in their own way, but if you record at a level of -18 rms with peak levels of -12db (Bob Katz says in his book it`s best to use -14db as your guideline) you`ll get a
clean signal with mountains of headroom, and you won`t hear any missing bits :wink:
If it`s too quiet turn up the monitors.

Here is another good read.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/a ... 0910-1.htm

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:50 pm 
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But all my amps go to 11!

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:06 pm 
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RZ wrote:
But all my amps go to 11!


:) Is that analogue 11 or digital 11

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:17 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:31 pm 
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That will take you well over the -12db threshold :wink:

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:38 pm 
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T.Mac. wrote:
That will take you well over the -12db threshold :wink:

T.


That's why I record at -6!

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:42 pm 
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Which is even louder !!

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:25 pm 
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Robbie wrote:

Record peaking at -0 dB. Then, feel free to use a new concept: pull the fader down!



Not sure if i agree with this solution totally.

It is my understanding that The lower faders are placed the less effective they become as controls to achieve balance, due to their architecture.

So IMO, the best route is to track somewhat aggressively, but staying away from the zero by several dB. then when it comes to mix time, use the view screen to attenuate the volume at the start of the signal chain. this allows you to adjust what you captured down in volume and this in turn lets you bring the faders up closer to zero for the mixing process.

the G/1600 only allow attenuating cuts on the inputs and tracks. (You have got + and -12dB on the stereo bus though.) the 2400 will give you a cut or an add of 12dB at the head of all of the chains not just the stereo chain. this allows you to be timid upon tracking, should you fear spikes, or perhaps just getting it wrong on the light handed side whilst tracking. but timid tracking is not a good habit, but it happens now and again.

Remember John Paul's post some years back where he attempted to explain the AW's "built-in" headroom. I will dig it out if i can, as it may have some relevance to this discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:43 pm 
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In the manual on page 221 it says Nominal input level -46dbu to +4dbu which is -20dbfs, but that`s RMS.
All searches I`ve done for Nominal Peak levels all say -12dbfs.
Going anywhere near 0db just does`nt make any sense.
Having said that I can understand why there is so much confusion as to where recording levels should be, the internet is full of people giving misinformation, which I think is mainly younger people, maybe because they don`t know about analogue desks I dunno.
If Yamaha have made these machines with built in headroom, why is it when I track at my level in my 1600, which is then fed into my interface and into the software, it`s exactly the same level? surely that would mean my interface and my software vu`s are calibrated to the same, coincidence?

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:03 pm 
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viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11220&p=124204#p124204

Here is the link of which i spoke. the poster was Robert Paul - not John Paul as i said above.

that guy had another name he used earlier too. What was he calling himself back then ???

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:10 pm 
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Byron wrote:
http://forum.dijonstock.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11220&p=124204#p124204

Here is the link of which i spoke. the poster was Robert Paul - not John Paul as i said above.

that guy had another name he used earlier too. What was he calling himself back then ???


I`ll have to try it later for myself Byron.
So if this is correct, does that mean we are all using less of the 16 and 24 bits than even Robbie thought?

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:33 pm 
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T.Mac. wrote:
Byron wrote:
http://forum.dijonstock.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11220&p=124204#p124204

Here is the link of which i spoke. the poster was Robert Paul - not John Paul as i said above.

that guy had another name he used earlier too. What was he calling himself back then ???


I`ll have to try it later for myself Byron.
So if this is correct, does that mean we are all using less of the 16 and 24 bits than even Robbie thought?

T.



???

I just know that this was one of the threads from which grew my awareness of the importance of gain staging. In an ideal world, all your tracking would be so perfect that when it comes to mixing you could just leave your faders at 0 and the song would sound great. This of course is not even close to how it goes.

as for using all the bits - not as critical as using too few of the available bits/sample. if you track too low, although there may be opportunity to attenuate (up) the signal, you lift the noise floor too. It is my understanding that, over several tracks in a mix, the accumulated loss of resolution and the lifted noise floor contributes to the end product's "muddiness"

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:16 am 
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That guys post has got me very intrigued Byron, I can`t believe that if Yamaha have the inputs internally padded or attenuated or whatever, that it is`nt more widely known !!
I`m sending an email to Yamaha in the morning (there`s a guy there that`s been quite helpful in the past) I`m going to try and find out if it`s correct.
Enjoy the rest of your day all.

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:52 am 
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That sounds like a good idea. I will be very interested in what you find.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:24 pm 
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60's guy wrote:
Time and time again I read the suggestion that you should record every individual tracks at -6 dB. There was a time when I thought that was the right approach.

http://www.massivemastering.com/blog/in ... Levels.php

Read the article.....especially if you are recording at 24 bit.

I had learned for myself (latest project/unfinished) that recording individual tracks to peak at no higher than -12 dB (even at 16 bit) was an improvement over any thing I had ever recorded before especially when mixing multiple tracks.

Food for thought.


I came to the same conclusion as you a couple of years back, it sounds better to me also if I peak at -12db, but perhaps more important is the average level which should be -18db(fs).
Every article in magazines like Sound on Sound etc. I`ve ever read on this subject says the same thing, "headroom is your friend". and to quote Bob Katz again(sorry) "cushion plus headroom".
Enjoy your day.

T.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:28 pm 
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A very good read.

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 Post subject: Re: Too hot?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:32 pm 
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I think we've been through this discussion before. Personally, what I miss is a good explanation of why to keep the most significant bits unused. Furthermore, people can say "headroom is your friend", but I've rarely seen a statement with so little context.

So, for the sake of the argument, let's say our goal is to peak at -12 dB. That means the two most significant bits are not used. Pulling up the fader whenever we want that track to peak in the mix as close as possible to 0 dB will also pull up the noise floor. Something we don't want to do. (as stated before, this becomes less relevant when a number of tracks is used as a mix is the sum of the signals that are put on the stereo bus).

Peaking at -12 dB. Why? I'd very much like to understand. Apparently, recording than -12 dB will make something go wrong. What is it that goes wrong, and why?

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