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 Post subject: Bouncing, bouncing...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:42 pm 
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Well, I finally used up enough tracks so that I have to bounce things to make more room. I have various guitar parts on virtual tracks I can easily combine because volume levels will be the same in the final mix. But can you only bounce or mixdown to a stereo track? And only MOVE a stereo track to another stereo track? Any way to make a stereo track mono again?

It's a 24 bit song, so I know I can only playback on 1-8. I assume the virtual track selection in BOUNCE works like a ST mixdown: your highlighted VT gets selected from the TRACK menu. It looks like you can choose two or more source tracks to get bussed, either on the L or R bus, to a single destination track (with VT pre-selected again, we hope).

Well, I'll try it. Seems godawful complicated.
Then you keep track, and keep re-arranging things in an orderly way?
Oof.. life at this budget level....


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:40 pm 
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I would do a mixdown of say all guitars, set up left, right, levels etc to a stereo track like 15/16. Then move the single tracks down for safe keeping and bring up open tracks. I always liked to mixdown my drums to two track as well. If you're doing backing harmonies, same applies. Those stereo tracks can be extremely useful.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:53 pm 
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Yeah, that sounds like the way. I'll need to do it in stages, though. I've got a few parts on different virtual tracks on track 3, for example. The 2 rhythm guitars are on different tracks (A and B sections) and no drums yet. Haha. Singer/songwriter, so I'm used to working this direction. That'll be another interesting phase, giving my drummer a copy of a rough mix, so he gets to know the song before we record the drums. Don't know if we'll set up here, or elsewhere. Looking at options. Might use a decent machine to record a scratch drum track, and then use part of that for the final, if necessary.

Obviously, getting drums in earlier is ideal. One thing at a time, though. Haven't done much for a decade with this machine. At least I got the recording and mixing basics down on the last big project, and used it for little projects in the interim, so the stuff that seemed complicated when I started is straightforward now. Looking forward to experiencing that with this phase after I get over the hump.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:54 am 
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Marker Magician
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rascalfareye wrote:
Any way to make a stereo track mono again?



I would perhaps avoid the bounce, although bouncing is useful in some instances. No effects are available during a bounce though so i more often use a ST Track mixdown. As Ron said those sub mix stems are usually very useful. But if you want your guitars layered in a mono track you could always makes sure all are panned center, then record a ST track. Then move that St T to a pair. Then you could move either the L or R of the pair out of the way to a free virtual so as to free that track whilst leaving the mono mix behind. This method allows you to use any EFF or DYN or EQ on the individual tracks, or send them through an EFF bus to print with the mix, if you so desire. as i said, bouncing bypasses EFF etc. If you go that route and you send some or all the tracks through some EFF (verb tremol etc.) on the EFF bus, do not forget to adjust the pan of the EFF return so it is centered too, as EFF are stereo busses.

But I would likely make stereo Guit stem, as Ron suggested.

If you do bounce, do not forget that it is the source track(s) that determines the level of the bounce, but it is the destination track that you monitor as the bounce records in real time. So be careful that you don't fool yourself by listening louder or softer than it is actually recording by pushing the destination track up or down in comparison to the source (s). Again, the mixdown> Move method is often preferred.

Are you using a 1600 or a 2400?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:28 pm 
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Hi Byron

I'm using a 1600. I did some successful bounces yesterday. Yes, the source track levels are what you want to maintain. Did that. Realized I could keep or redo them, and just keep moving stuff around. Before I posted here, I noticed a few parts I'll need at the same volume in the final mix, and thought about setting that, and being done with it. I haven't even been into effects section yet. Obviously, EQing and compressing stuff, etc. gives you max control of the various parts before you stick them together, but I'm trying to handle one learning curve at a time, and need to make more recording room. I've got 64 tracks, but keeping track just seemed complicated a few days ago. But that's what track sheets are for. Wrapping my head around the whole bus phenomenon was good. Now I've got to do it with the effects chain, and understand the whole pre/post, on/off stuff.

I don't have the last guitar solo for the outro written/recorded, which is a to-do before making a stereo stem. Some vocal harmonies yet to go, too. Been dividing up the time between tracking and editing/organizing, depending on what my energy's good for on a given day/week. One guitar harmony fits over a vocal line, and one part combines with a triangle I had hanging around for a more bell-like sound. There are so many parts that sound different, and got recorded separately, I just wanted to avoid too much chaos. I even bounced one lick in with the bass. That was the only truly questionable move yesterday. It's not a super critical mix for this song. It's a novelty song/test run for moving up in complexity.

Maybe I'll try the ST route going forward. So you break up a center-panned stereo track into separate monos, by simply moving one pair away in the edit menu?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:55 pm 
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I do believe that you have to move a ST Track L&R as a pair. You cant specify L or R. Then you would just use one side of the pair to which it is moved and delete the other in order to free that track. If every track that went into the stem mixdown was Pan centered (don't forget to center Eff returns too) the LR will be identical.

Perhaps you should consider working at 16 bit. the end result is excellent and the track count is increased.

If you are on a 1600 and are taking steps such as bouncing a lick to ride on a bass track, in order to preserve tracks, then you should educate yourself regarding the PADS. These can be used to fly in licks, percussion etc., essentially increasing your track count possibilities.

Is your tune recorded to a click track? If so the PADS become very useful, through the Grid record facility on the 1600. (16G does not have Grid recording). I have used the Pads and have written about them here over the years. the 2400 does not have Pads so I kept my 1600 for that reason. Predictably i have not used them too often though since using the 2400.

Another feature of the 1600 that was not transferred to the 2400 is the library available on the inputs of the 1600.. I believe you press and hold the button on an input to get the VIEW screen. There is a button for Library there on that screen. Several interesting presets there useful for guitar tracking at times.

Have fun!!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:35 am 
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Thanks, Byron.
Part of what was missing for me was understanding the machine in terms of signal chain. These are all recording functions: direct and bounce and mixdown. So just like external effects, the internals have to be added as part of a recording. An input signal, bounce, mixdown, whatever. That's what I got from reading the effects, dynamics and libraries sections today. Which is okay. I can just rebounce my parts around and put effects and dynamics on them in process. Somehow I got the impression that since the effects were internal, they were virtual or something, and you just stuck them on an existing track, and the DAW replicated the setting once you went to mix. I don't know. Something about scenes, and storage.

Like I said, I hadn't been into those functions yet. I recorded my second CD here at home with it, and all I did was tracking, mixing, squashing some hot signals, and using the vital mix library for a mixdown, before taking it to a techie friend to master. I didn't even splash any reverb on. There was something intimate about the dry mix I liked.

No, I don't use a click. That metronome sound is irritating. I'll just try out all these settings, and figure out these sections of the machine. I've never been much of a techie. We bought quadraverbs back when I was in an acoustic duo, and I tailored a lot of the settings for guitar instrumentals I wrote, soon afterward. Still got mine, but that thing is noisy. I've got a GT6 I never use, because I don't want to learn it. This Yamaha is enough overlapping controls for me. The input library can wait for another project, probably. But I've got my bearings. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:30 pm 
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i fully understand the resistance to using a click, but I do encourage its use on bed tracks. You just need one "scratch track" upon which to build. Could be a guitar with simplistic strum on the down beat or a one finger piano, or the bass pattern or a machine generated drum beat. A scratch need not be up to inclusion in the mix >> just plough through, not worrying about any mistakes in lyrics or sour notes.. Just keep on time so you can lay a better track against it later. Then you build on that. I am sure you appreciate the advantage then of how your song sounds consistent and more "pro". But not to be overlooked is the opportunity to cut/paste when editing and assembling, allowing mistakes to more easily be "fixed" and make it possible to assemble virtual tracks to make a final.

The Pads are very useful and conform to the grid and so can be used to build the mix. Pads can be controlled by real time button pushing, but that is fraught with human error. but the GRID Recording utility automates the process then allowing accurately placed fly-ins according to the Tempo Map setting. Worth working up IMHO.

You need to understand what processing occurs ( or more accurately what does not occur) during a bounce. I use a mix down>>move, more often than a bounce.

Perhaps you have the time on your hand to explore these days if you are confined to home over the current world health situation. Hope all safe with your family and friends.

Keep at it.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:28 pm 
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Yeah, maybe in the future. I'm thinking about laying down a scratch percussion track as a guide for the drummer. The acoustic guitar track will get yanked from the A sections, and left for the B sections, probably, and it's the most percussive element.

Got all the little guitar bits and vocal harmonies laid down finally. So, time to sew them together in mini mixdowns, and make a preliminary mix for the drummer so he can learn the song better. I'm resisting going into EQ, dynamics and effects until the final. Then I can track where everything is going more simply.

Like I said, this is kind of a prep song for more multitracking. I will put it 'out there' because a lot of social media friends will be highly entertained, and it could 'turn into something' and/or be a 'calling card'\ representative of my skills, but I'm focused on the song a bit more than the production this time around. It can be redone if warranted. I'll post a link when I send it out.


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