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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:57 pm 
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Mr. Electonica Dude
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C'mon Scooter..........just one more take !

You can do it.

msg

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:12 am 
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Marker Magician
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I work as you are describing quite frequently. Get the whole mix in your head and then rehearse it like any song you've rehearsed before and then play the machine like an instrument. Simple is good.

Good luck - it really is the best way to mix ( I mean fun) for me. I really enjoy a realtime mix. When you get into it you will find many creative ways to do things, and discover some simplicities too.

Hope it goes well.

Byron

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:48 am 
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Tenderfoot
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I usually like to mix in one pass, although that one pass may take all day and be ruined by a poor fadeout. A couple of workarounds I've used for difficult manual mixes.

1. Mixdown in sections eg Verse 1 to, say ST8, chorus 1 to ST7, etc. You do need to be ready to pull down any faders that contain the start of the next section but you can record with that in mind if you think you will have a really complex mix.

When all the sections are ok, move ST8 to 9/10 on a spare VT say VT8, ST7 to 11/12, etc. If you have more than 4 sections, backtrack to the previous pairs eg if chorus 1 was on 11/12 then putting chorus 2 on 11/12 will allow the same treatment to both when you compile the final mix.

When you are happy with all of that, run a final mix of the sections.

2. Punch-in works on mixdown just as it does in other modes but it is very difficult to achive a smooth join, especially if you have reverb tails, but I have gotten away with it before to fix an otherwise good mix.

3. Bad fadeouts can ruin your good pass. You can mix the fade to another VT(s) until you get it right then substitue that for the original at mixdown.

I never cease to be amazed at the workaround options you can do on this machine (G). I hope this helps.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:36 am 
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Marker Magician
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I use many work arounds such as those described. If the tempo map is accurate, simple cut - paste edits to specific bars/ beats are often effective. having a scene as a starting point is good too, You can set it so it will return to this setting with a RTZ command, but set up a loop with the repeat A B function so it will never go back to this point, unless you tell it to. Then get control of the faders and mix away. If I get a mix that is working, but is too load ( or quiet on occasion) I go to the Stereo Channel View screen and boost or cut the signal a dB or 3. This is much easier than going back to the template scene and trying to adjust all the relative volumes and sends. You can do this either pre or post the St Channel's EQ /Dynamics. If you are cutting a loud mix a bit, pre will often result in the compressors you may have running on the stereo channel to not work quite so hard, or at all in sections, which may improve your mix. get the volume back with some makeup gain on the compressor or at the end of the signal chain in the Ch View. Tons of work arounds. Have fun with it!

Byron

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:54 am 
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Mr. Blues
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Hi Byron, hi guitarman,

that are very great tipps for a newbie like me. Learned a lot from your last posts!

Please tell more of your secrets!

Andreas

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:43 pm 
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Tenderfoot
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60's guy wrote:
RZ wrote:
Oh my bad, I thought the purpose of the cd was for the benefit of the contributors.

You thought right, Ron.

The only reason I'm up this late at night is because I was working on the Comp CD and I was checking to see if Stacy or Scooter were finally going to show up with a submission or two.



Alright alright...don;t stay up late. My kids have been sick, the job has sucked, mother-in-law really ill etc. It will be on its way.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:13 pm 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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So from now on things can only get better and hopefully they will.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:00 am 
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Blackbeer wrote:
Take a good beer, relax and the mix will go!

Andreas



excellent advide
and if no beer than a half hour of hyperventilated meditation and then...
or a good piece of chewing gum and make pretend it's a warehouse job and the boos is gone. :D :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:56 pm 
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Just an update.....not sure if I can make the deadline or not. I am really starting to think something is not quite right with my 16G.

I have had this week off work to do some home maintainance and spring yard work, finish some wood working projects such as a work bench in progress and some stands for equipment. I have a band saw I bought new from Grizzly well over a year ago and a new drill press neither of which I have had time to open the box.......plus a power point presentation for the advanced cardiac echocardiography class.....too much other stuff to list that I at least wanted to make a good dent in.

But then I thought about for how long and how many deadlines I have missed and decided to give it a good two days worth of work to see if I can get it straightened out but I have continued to have issues with inexplicable scenes changing back to compression settings that I have not used on this project in well over 6 months.

My check HDD stil says everything checks out.

Another reason for using scenes for me is the work around it gives you for using more than two effects in the song although still limited to two at a time.

Thursday night and Friday morning I started running into new effects used later in the song and saved to existings scenes that were modified and used in the chorus showing up on the verse (before the chorus) on playback even though either other effects or no effects had been saved successfully to scenes on the verses. Some panning and phase reversal changes also were resetting themselves right after I

Scene issues
1. Re-corrected the settings
2. Re-saved each channels settings one at a time into the appropriate scene
3. Recalled the just saved scene to verify correct settings were saved and recalling
4. Saved the song after the scene was recalled and verified for all affected channels
5. Optimized the song every single time after saving the song for locking in a new scene change.

Still on play back some scenes seemed to revert back to previous versions
with no rhyme or reason. I did catch myself making mistakes here and there saving to a wrong scene but these were either caught in the act or right after playback. But other scenes that had been playing back correctly many times before as I was working on tweaking the next section would suddenly mess up again to an older saved version.

Protect Scenes still change

Now I repeat the process above protecting each scene after reviewing every completed scenes.

Still there are effect changes happening to saved and protected scenes that were then saved in the song and again optimized....I'm pulling my hair out at this point and even stared shutting down the G and restarting it like you do with software upgrades etc.

Yesterday the fist half of the song was really sounding good and I seemed to be on the home stretch just before leaving to pick up my daughter. I had two doubled guitar parts on a pre chorus that I wanted to chop short and add an echo to one each of the doubled guitars and leave one sustained on each side. It sounded absolutely killer on one panned side after I got the delay dialed in. Next I edited the one guitar on the other side and saved the scene as described above.

Play back dismay........
I gleefully wait to hear the scene come into play as again I start the song from the beginning and WTF? :evil: The guitar tracks have all gone out of synch again which is really F'd up with the delay. I turn the echo off and I verify with the wave forms that indeed the time of the guitar tracks are all screwed up.

I spent from 8:00 PM last night to 6:00 AM trying to re-align the tracks and had to get up at 9:00AM. It took me two months (four weekends in those two months) of tedious editing the last time I ran into this on the same song when I first started mixing it.

I'm off to church tonight and need to ask extra forgiveness for all the profanity I expelled the last two days.

If anyone has any ideas on how to still use scenes for the EQ / Dynamics but ride the faders I will give it a shot but the manual did not give me the imression it works the way I thought it did.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:59 am 
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Mr. Electonica Dude
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Are you specifying scene recall properly in the tempo map? (times and scene ID )

I'll be glad to mix it up for you if you'll tell me exactly what you want. I'll throw it in Sonar and then all you gotta do is push faders when you do yer final mixdown. Or......I can do that too if it would help with the deadline.

msg

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:06 am 
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Lava Boy
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mrskygod wrote:
Are you specifying scene recall properly in the tempo map? (times and scene ID )


Yes these are events occuring at the right time for each scene but the saved scene info is changing even when the scene was protected in some cases.

I think if I do get this one done I will copy everything onto a back up and load the updated OS.

Another issue I forgot to mention as I ran out of time is that the wave view window is really jacked up now where I have had to make multiple cut / past / insert edits to get the times realigned. This has only occured within the last two days.


When I find the point in a specific waveform that I need to synch another track to I will settle on a point in time such as 017.878 as found by carefull listening and adjusting the size and length of the correct or reference waveform some of these waveforms that have had previous edits near this point will read one time placement if you approach from the leading edge of a wave form (move cursor from left to right) and a significanty different number if you approach the exact same point from the trailing edge (move cursor from right to left). Some of the time differences were as high as 20ms to 30ms for the same point in the same waveform at the same display size (usually this becomes more obvious at 100ms to 200ms resolution). These were not realized until after making edits that according to one set of numbers should have been on the money but were obviously off on playback.

There was another waveform with one splice that played continuous as desired with no obvious edit in the playback but there was an obvious "flat line" gap in the waveform between the initial start of the waveform say 5ms after onset and then there would appear to be the equivalent of a 10ms - 20ms empty spot before the displayed waveform picked up again on the display. Even playing back within the waveform window with this one track isolated the sound continues to play (which is good) but the marker passes over a flat spot where the waveform would indicate there was no sound.

Some other very small waveforms do the opposite where there is a clean unsliced or spliced waveform displayed on the viewer but no sound is produced even though the channel is turned on for monitoring according to the scene and according to the lights on the board.

mrskygod wrote:
I'll be glad to mix it up for you if you'll tell me exactly what you want. I'll throw it in Sonar and then all you gotta do is push faders when you do yer final mixdown. Or......I can do that too if it would help with the deadline.

msg


That is an incredible offer I may take you up on but I am out of time to do any further work until next weekend after tomorrow night. Lets see if anything actually goes smoothly tonight.

I think I will burn a back up of the raw data tonight before I start again as an unmixed exchange CD just in case. If I run into problems I will give you a call in the morning to arrange a way to transfer the file. I have DSL and could use "u send it" or whatever preference you have to make it easier to download and send back.

Some of the EQ, effect and dynamic settings may be hard to 100% finalize without hearing a working rough mix as a whole but then again I should be able to make further minor adjustments if needed at that time.

Ignoring the the sage adage that "Talking about music is like dancing about architecture" :wink: as a last resort I would much rather give you what I have pulled from the ruins with notes on what I was going for and turn in a Scooter B original mixed by The Sky God Mix Master himself (I'll split points with you 50/50 :lol: ) rather than miss out. Plus your overall mix would be better with more experienced ears, hands and a few more toys.

I'll let you know in the morning after I give it another go for two hours tonight but I have GOT to get a good eight hours sleep tonight. :sleepy1: :sleepy2: :sleepy5:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:14 am 
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Mr. Electonica Dude
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The very issues you are addressing with the waveform view not accurately showing what is going on after editing is the main reason I dumped my G in favor of the 4416 which not only has editing advantages but also doesn't have this scatterbrained waveform view bug.

U send it is fine. If I can help holler. I got plenty of time this week.

msg

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:26 pm 
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Marker Magician
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Sounds like a bit of a nightmare. I'm with Geno on his advice to check the tempo map. If the wrong number gets into the list on the right side of that screen, then you are in trouble. If you have been creating all new scenes with all your scene rescuing efforts, this list in the tempo map needs to be scrutinized very carefully to ensure the correct scenes are called up. I know you must know this already, but as you toggle down this list in the tempo map it is so easy to screw up. between the enter button and the jog wheel there is great potential for the wrong scene to be requested.

Hope you get it sorted. Looking forward to hearing the song and the explanation of your troubles.

Regards,

Byron

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:58 pm 
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Lava Boy
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It's definitely not the tempo map. I doubled checked it first before looking at the scenes and I have a written outline of the tempo map with the measure, scene name and scene number on a legal pad.

Each time I run into unexpected changes

1. I recall the associated scene the wrong event occured.
2. Go to Track View under the View menu.
3. Check the effect routing setting on the top tight.
4. Go to effect one or two edit screen to see which effect is pulled up.

Every time there is a wrong effect recall by a saved scene the one I am hearing is the one listed on the edit screen and not the one I had previously saved.

No new scenes created I'm just saving the changes or re-saving the right settings to the existing scene and scene number to avoid confusion on the tempo map.

This means the scene numbers are not sequential (and appear somewhat chaotic on the tempo map) when new scenes are needed to fit between existing ones.

Stayed up till 3:00 and the guitars tracks appear synchronized again.

80% of the scenes have been set and reset one time or another but as far as going through the song to make sure the scenes transition smoothly I am only through the first two verses, some pre-chorus transitions and half way through the first chorus.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:15 pm 
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Tenderfoot
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Help!!!
Where do I send a CD to Randy...I had the address somewhere in my PM's and I can't find them.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:17 am 
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Marker Magician
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Have you checked the recall safe screen in the SCENE menu? You can enable - disable individual tracks, inputs, pads here, but you can also set it to override settings for the stereo track, the inputs and tracks and the returns. If you go to the the recall safe screen and the word RETURNS is darkened, toggle to it and hit the enter key. this will allow instructions embedded in scenes that relate to the returns to be controlled by the scenes. Maybe you've covered this possibility, but thought I'd suggest it. If memory serves me correctly, the sends and pre/post assignments of the effects are controlled separately from the effects returns, so the the effects bus levels will change with the scenes ( I think they are TRACK instructions in the Recall Safe scheme of things). But, if the RETURNS are overridden in the Recall Safe menu, effects 1 & 2 parameter will not change as the song goes through the tempo map. Just a thought. Hope you find your problem.

Byron

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:13 pm 
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stacy wrote:
Help!!!
Where do I send a CD to Randy...I had the address somewhere in my PM's and I can't find them.

I PM'd it again.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:18 pm 
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Scooter B wrote:
Just an update.....not sure if I can make the deadline or not.

Sorry to read of your recording woes, Scooter, but I can only give you until Saturday morning April 19th to submit a file.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:12 pm 
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Tenderfoot
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60's guy wrote:
stacy wrote:
Help!!!
Where do I send a CD to Randy...I had the address somewhere in my PM's and I can't find them.

I PM'd it again.

A special thanks to Randy!!!!I love finally getting the comps CD's and seeing what everyone is doing!!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:27 pm 
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Ok bets on whether Scooter gets the song finished in time!

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