The DijonStock Digital Home Recording Support Forum

OK I learned to play drums by ear.....can't read music....and didn't know the difference between an E note and a B sharp until a year or two ago! I do however posses crazy skill when it comes to playing/jamming with people who know what THEY'RE doing. Which brings me to time signatures....i can play in all kinds of times(so I've been told) but the only one I know FOR SURE is 4/4....what's the difference between 3/3 and 3/4? How do you COUNT them in your head, or with your foot? what's the difference between 3/4 and 6/8?....I could go on!!! And what the hell is 7/8!!!!!???
help me

I was trained on stickwork and rudiments, but taught myself on kit. I generally try not to count at all really, and just try to internalize the feel and duration of the meter. When I try to count I usually just get all gummed up.

Dunno about 7/8 but hit this link and checkout the song "7 4 Shoreline" (go figure!) by one of my favorite bands, Broken Social Scene for a great example of 7/4 drumming:

http://www.myspace.com/brokensocialscene

DRUMMERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!!!


(Note also, Mr. Spishak, that they are appearing in your fair and rainy city soon:
"26 Oct 2007 20:00 Moore Theater Seattle, Washington")

_________________
))))))))))((((((((((

Thanx Painter! i may try to see them @ the Moore. I don't count while playing either...I just ride the groove and the drums just come out natural.

I ask because I want to try to program synth/keyboard stuff in a sig OTHER than 4/4, but I'd like to have a better understanding of how they work, and how to feel/count them like you're supposed to.

Drumz was I all I knew, and I jumped head first into synths......didn't know how to stay in key, or for that matter, what the notes WERE! 7 years later I'm in a blank for what to do in anything OTHER than 4/4 time....need more knowledge... dot dot dot

OK I think I got an answer from Wikipedia(shoulda went there first) In 12/8 time you count ONE two three FOUR five six SEVEN eight nine TEN eleven twelve......sooooo...... the 8 means to count it in eighth notes, and the 12 means there's twelve of them....I think I'm on to sum'in.....20 years'o'drums to lern this??????
I guess so if you never count in yer head, and rely on the DEEP brain to figure it out for ya That's weird!!!

OUCH!!!!


((( )))

_________________
))))))))))((((((((((

Yeah!!......and the learning curve was a M'er F'er!!!! All for my love of electronica

*I can count to 4......you want me to count to 5???*

Did you get a concussion? Or did the fro protect your head from the impact with the synths?

= helmet

_________________
))))))))))((((((((((

There was a thread on weird time sigs recently:

http://forum.dijonstock.com/viewtopic.php?t=6821

I think you got it Spi, but I'm not sure what this means for your original reference to 3/3 time.

I'm still trying to figure that one out

I use to teach at Berklee College of Music and have written ALOT of percussion music for ensembles, so I'm really into multi meter and "time theory". For starters, "BEATS" are "usually" divided into divisions of 2 (quarter, eight, 16th, 32nd) called DUPLE METERS. Others are divided into 3's (like triplets, but notated differently) called TERNARY METERS.

top value of a time signature is how many notes or in a measure, the bottom value is which note value (quarter, eight, 16th) will be given on "count" or pulse in DUPLE METERS But.. it is misleading in TERNARY METERS because the real "BEAT" is felt in the grouping of 3s (the beat division). Hence, a 12/8 meters really "FEELS" LIKE 4 GROUPS OF TRIPLETS!.

This rule is again broken if you're going from a 4/4 meter to a 7/8 measure where the 8th notes are of equal time value -- basically just subtracting one 8th note from of same equal value from the 4/4.

next question??

Is there anything wrong with not understanding any of that stuff, but playing by feel and knowing it's working because the groove keeps flowing?

I'm speaking as a bass player who's knowledge of written music and theory is only bettered by my knowledge of the Hungarian language.

_________________
"You think you are going to die...and then you don't." © Robbie Jukebox - 23rd July 2004.

Ultimately, the feel is ALL that is important. but by understanding HOW it works you can learn to do more things faster and better. At least, that's my belief. Analysis has its place but it's not everything, but open doors as to "why things work" and "how to make them better".

six million dollar man

no, i appreciate the value of your lesson

i saw a NPR TV show recently where dave brubeck said he got knock on the door from duke ellington who handed to him his own cover on time magazine.
dave commented on how wrong it was for him to be on time mag before duke.

(well amen)

(just a personal vagary - ) i can remember when some musicians got all hung up in time sig.

i'm working with a drummer now who is an all around great (pays sax, keys, percussion, writes sappy ballads) musician whose reliance on timing is impeccable. (fuker!)

i know his timing is right, but he wasn't there (when i laid my bass) to bend with the feel.

winton marsellas i'll never mesh chops with, but even in classical music timing is not swiss-made. sheeesh!

but back to dave.
he said he was interested in hearing music from many places.
lucky fuck - he had the means to go to places.
(of course that's another thing that pisses *me* off but *hey* somebody has to do it)

anyway, whilst in turkey he heard some guys jamming in 9/8.
blue rondo ala turk

it's interesting because so many of us musicians relate our proficiency to things that might seem unrelated to music
for example only a muscian would know that stamina relates to a musician's physical ability to maintain accuracy.

so back to time sig

ah, the musician the conquerer
well hell, there's the conquerer, the conquerer ain't there?
shucks, there's enough music to go around without fellers trying to chop heads with time sig ain't there.

so my best knowence not coming from a serious musical family and all is that within some realms the sig is counted - burgers flying and all - and it's ultra real

them folks that earn a living from playing classical music ain't triflers and should not earn wages of triflers.

perspective

we that play by feel should not be too upset by time sig unless we need to get our own ass in gear.

trustme, you'll git it.

_________________
"Let there be bass." - Leo Fender

hi denny
fear nothing
arrogance unbounded abounds as we thirst for true perspective
this a great forum in that (in my opinion) many of the participants have great sense of humor and intense sense of interest of all things music and arts related, but we ain''t so stuffy.
but will still want to get the job done.

_________________
"Let there be bass." - Leo Fender

I too played by "feel" for years. It is enlightening to me to learn more about the nuts and bolts of music theory. It has opened many doors musically for me that would otherwise never have been unlocked. I now try to soak up everything I can as my music has gotten better understanding the basics of how it works. There's no right or wrong IMO of what one knows musically. Just like some people throw paint on a wall and call it art , some I like and some I don't. I know gifted musicians who can sight read a piece of music but can't play by ear. I think that is a loss as well.

msg

_________________
THE MUSIC IS DOWN IN HERE
____________________________________________________

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.

dig
splatt back

the funny deal is'that we're all alone in some vacuum of miscommunication

if we're sensitive to music - then what?

our higher intuition informs us that we are aware
but our lower (maybe even *more* intelligent self) feels helpless

crude is just as real as evolved when you look *or* feel what you think you can accept as the world you live in.

at some level we have to accept all grass as grass
while we understand that grass could be a lot more greennr...
but still it's grass

_________________
"Let there be bass." - Leo Fender

sorry, got off the feel subject
just sayin that a lot of *feel8 players got a lot on their gouds
that's why we admire charlie parker, miles davis, john lennon, john denver, jimmy carter, bin ladin, etal.
sorry again for my anarchy, but that's the way i speak.
i feel this agitated energy towrads getting things right that overcomes my sense of time.
ing

feel vs time

_________________
"Let there be bass." - Leo Fender

so
i have this insane vision that
first of all
i am diverted by political awareness
because politics is an institution
when politics should be a service
when life should be respected, enjoyed, and appreciated
reality informs us that things ain't working as good as they should
i am again diverted by ideals and schemes that misunderstand and misrepresent the value of conservatism
conservatism should by laws understood by intelligent creatures who understand the reality within the span of the 40 to 90 years in which we dwell amongst the other living creatures, ideals, ideas, future that we can comprehend - encourage and support life.
the making money idea is smart - but not entirely intelligent.


life is precious
no argument

focusing life is another conundrum
that is way beyond my ken

but i can play in 7/8, 9/8
and will discuss simple time like 3/4 vs 6/8

agsin,

make me dance?
make me listen?
make me watch tv?

whadda ya want me to do ?

truth is (IMHO)
keep me entertained

_________________
"Let there be bass." - Leo Fender

Hey, the guy asked a theory question and I tried to answer it -- that's all. Wasn' trying to be "high and mighty" . Like I said, no matter what you know, it must FEEL.

Email context is so often misinterpreted so don't know what the heck all your comments meant. But I sense a negative "reaction" from above.

I love this forum and appreciate everyone's help so much. Don't want to create any "bad vibes".

Peace to all,
dennyc