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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:49 am 
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Tinhorn
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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So I got my first "real keyboard" finally! (as a xmas present to myself)

A brandy new shiny, KORG M50 88 key (weighted)

Now at first - I was pretty overwhelmed with just looking at the thing, but i've been picking it up fairly quickly to my surprise..

So far i've figured out the major, minor and 7th chords (being the easiest to change back and fourth from). But thats it.. and i've been trying to form them as quickly as possible with the proper fingerings.

But i'd like to know more tips and tricks. I seem to be thrown off by the black keys the most. On guitar its so easy to "move" up and down the neck in the SAME position always (whether, major, minor, 7th's, 9th's, sus4's etc). As for the piano, those little black keys really can throw off my hand positions.

So for all you piano/key players there, any good websites, or PERSONAL tips to give out to a beginner on the keys? :P


thanks!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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Keys and guitars are absolutely incomparable. They both have their upsides and downsides. Things that are easy on the guitar are next to impossible on keys, and the other way around.

I'd probably take a few piano lessons. There must be a good teacher in your neighbourhood that can teach you the basics. It's very important to understand them well, because each new technique is built on the former that you already master. If that is learned wrong you'll get stuck.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:42 pm 
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HamelnStock Survivor and Midi Guru
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Robbie wrote:
Keys and guitars are absolutely incomparable. They both have their upsides and downsides. Things that are easy on the guitar are next to impossible on keys, and the other way around.


There is truth in the wise mans words but then again a lot of things are the same. If your thrown of by the black keys you should know that each black key is a sharp note (or a flat one depending on what you are playing). Anyway it's not just a C or a D. The black one right to your C is (mostly the first one on the keyboard from the left is a C) is C sharp. The black key to the right from the D (next white key) is D sharp. Next to the E (right) there is no black key because there is only a half tone between E and F and no room (speaking in tones) to fit a black key. (get the picture ?) This also means that there is a E flat but E sharp. It also means that between C and D there is a full tone or two half tones.
With this info and a little trick you can form almost every chord you'll ever need.

Notes are aranged like this. (seed diagram below)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C D E F G A B

This is a C major scale. If you want A you should start the scale with A


Now there is a formula to calculate each type of chord from this schematic. It goes like this.

C Major = 1 - 3 - 5 so the notes are C - E - G
C Minor = 1 - 3b - 5 Where b is Flat so instead of E you take the black key to the left of E which is E flat. So you get C - Eb - G. You can try this with each different key and it always fits. Comes in handy to find the chords you need. Don't need an entire book. Just these notes ! Below i copied all formula's from a list i got somewhere. I believe it was http://www.smithfowler.org/ so thank him for the info. Hope this helps you on your way.

( ) = OPTIONAL NOTE
MAJOR
Chord Type Symbol Formula
Major M, Maj 1-3-5
Added Fourth add4 1-3-4-5
Sixth 6 1-3-5-6
Six Nine 6/9 1-3-5-6-9
Major 7th Maj7 1-3-5-7
Major Ninth Maj9 1-3-5-7-9
Major Eleventh Maj11 1-3-5-7- (9)-11
Major Thirteenth Maj13 1-3-5-7-(9)-(11)-13
Major seven sharp eleventh Maj7#11 1-3-5-7- #11
Major Flat Five - 1-3-b5

MINOR
Chord Type Symbol Formula
Minor m 1-b3-5
Minor added fourth madd4 1-b3-4-5
Minor sixth m6 1-b3-5-6
Minor seventh m7 1-b3-5-b7
Minor added ninth madd9 1-b3-5-9
Minor six add nine m6/9 1-b3-5-6-9
Minor ninth m9 1-b3-5-b7-9
Minor eleventh m11 1-b3-5-b7-(9)-11
Minor thirteenth m13 1-b3-5-b7-(9)-(11)-13
Minor/Major seventh m/Maj7 1-b3-5-7
Minor/Major ninth m/Maj9 1-b3-5-7-9
Minor/Major eleventh m/Maj11 1-b3-5-7-(9)-11
Minor/Major thirteenth m/Maj13 1-b3-5-7-(9)-(11)-13
Minor seven flat fifth m7-5 or ø 1-b3-b5-b7
DOMINANT
Chord Type Symbol Formula
Seventh 7 1-3-5-b7
Ninth 9 1-3-5-b7-9
Eleventh 11 1-(3)-5-b7-(9)-11
Thirteenth 13 1-3-5-b7-(9)-(11)-13
Seven sharp five 7#5 1-3-#5-b7
Seven flat five 7b5 1-3-b5-b7
Seven flat ninth 7b9 1-3-5-b7-b9
Seven sharp ninth 7#9 1-3-5-b7-#9
Nine sharp five 9#5 1-3-#5-b7-9
Nine flat five 9b5 1-3-b5-b7-9
Seven sharp five sharp nine 7#5#9 1-3-#5-b7-#9
Seven sharp five flat nine 7#5b9 1-3-#5-b7-b9
Seven flat five sharp nine 7b5#9 1-3-b5-b7-#9
Seven flat five flat nine 7b5b9 1-3-b5-b7-b9
Seven sharp eleven 7#11 1-3-5-b7-#11

Symmetrical
Diminished dim (° ) 1-b3-b5
Diminished Seventh dim7 (°7) 1-b3-b5-bb7
Augmented aug (+) 1-3-#5

Miscellaneous
This section contains diadic "fifth" (2 note 'chords'),
the "Sus" chords, and the #11. A #11 contains a perfect fifth
as well as a sharp eleven, (which is the same note as a flat five but an octave higher).
These chords do not have a Major or Minor tonality, since there is no 3rd. However the #11 chord does have a Lydian sound.
Chord Type Symbol Formula
Fifth 5 1-5
Flat Fifth -5 1-b5
Suspended Fourth sus4 1-4-5
Suspended Second sus2 1-2(9)-5
Sharp Eleven #11 1-5-#11

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:43 am 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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Oh my... I wish I could only understand half of this stuff...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:53 am 
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Tinhorn
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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Wow, what a post! thanks guys! Thats alot of info!


I found that the easiest way for me to remember the (easier) chords and how they work using the "interval" formula.

ie.

Major is X (root) then count up 4 and then 3 for a Major Chord.

For minor - X (root) then count up 3 and then 4 for minor.

and 7th's are X (root) then 4 then 3 then 3.

Since im new to the keyboard, im still having some difficulity switching "hand positions" and forming my fingers into the proper chords on time. Guess i gotta just work at it slower, and speed it up over time.

I'd definetely wanna learn some dim7th's and 9th's

But seeing your chart with all the numbers brought me back to music theory from school and counting up in the scale. Now it makes much more sense [-o<

thank you 8)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:50 pm 
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HamelnStock Survivor and Midi Guru
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Robbie wrote:
Oh my... I wish I could only understand half of this stuff...


This is just pure mathematics Robbie. You of all people should easily understand this. Just read it slowly and look at the example. When we meet i'll show you how simple it really is.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:07 pm 
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Robbie The Botkiller
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I do understand the mathematic principles behind it, like that the difference between the frequency of two neighbouring semitones equals 21/12 (= 1,059463 -> 1,05946312 = 2 -> doubling the frequency is going up one octave wherever you start)... I simply don't know what to do with it. However when I hear something I can tell what's in it.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:36 am 
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HamelnStock Survivor and Midi Guru
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Location: Belgium
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Robbie wrote:
I do understand the mathematic principles behind it, like that the difference between the frequency of two neighbouring semitones equals 21/12 (= 1,059463 -> 1,05946312 = 2 -> doubling the frequency is going up one octave wherever you start)... I simply don't know what to do with it. However when I hear something I can tell what's in it.


Now i'm lost and before i post something i should better check before instead of after because the theory is exact but my explaination is not. The theory holds for C F and G but because of the steps between EF and BC this does not work for D,E A and B.

What i forgot to mention is that you have to build the schematic from the scale with wich your chord starts so if you are looking for a D chord you have to make sure the sharps are also present. So for D (which has two sharps) the scale is.

D E F# G A B C# So D chord = 1 - 3 - 5 = D - F# - A and if you want DM7 chord you just add the 7 which is C#. For a D6 you add the 6 and so on.

Now for Robbie, What you can do with this, specifically on a keyboard is you can switch the order in which you select these notes because if you do D - F# - A or you do A - D - F# or D - A - F# (in order on the keyboard) they all form the same chord. The art is to select the notes that allow you to move to the next chord with as little movement as possible. For example from D to Bm only requires that you move your thumb from A to B. Once you get this you need to check what the easiest way is to play the chords you need and then most songs become surprisingly simple.

I sincerely hope al of you get that because it makes all the difference in the world. If you have to jump from left to right on the keyboard you're never fast enough. If all it takes is moving one or two fingers while holding on to a reference you can do it in the dark... try it out some and see for yourselves...

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