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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:01 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
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Machine type: AW1600
Hello everyone,
I have two used Aw1600's that have song data I really need help with. I just want to begin with tempo. Some of the songs were laid down without a click track or template. Because ideas come to me quickly sometimes, I quickly recorded without using a click track.

They sound in time however, they don't "line up" on the tempo grid and I need to correct that without having to re-record from scratch. There are subtleties I want to preserve that can't be duplicated. In addition, I want to backup these "unfinished" songs to my laptop computer running Windows 8.1 but don't believe it's possible. However, I do have another computer running XP but have no disk that has the required USB Midi driver as pg. 209 in the manual describes. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you for this site.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Hello and welcome. I really can't be of service to your question. However, there are those who frequent this site who may be able to assist. Just keep on checking in and soon someone will be able to reply.

Glad you found our little slice of the ole interweb!
Ron

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:30 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 29
Machine type: AW1600
Hey Ron. Thanks for the welcome. Believe me, I'll be grateful for anyone's input on this and you I'm sure have more AW1600 knowledge than I do being my wife and I split resulting in me not having the time to spend on the AW for the past 5 years. Anything you can share will be helpful and I am so grateful for the people out there that go out of their way to post. Best to you and all.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:33 pm 
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Machine type: AW2400
I'm one of the original AW16G owners. The 1600 has advancements I've not studied. I actually jumped up to the AW2400. For me, it's just been a record, mix and burn to cd kinda thing. But luckily there are those who have the AW1600 and the well rounded knowledge that goes with it. Some of the regulars check in often, so I suspect there will be some answers soon enough.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:07 pm 
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Machine type: AW4416
Welcome bud.
It`s been a while since I had my AW1600 and if I even attempted to give you advice on lining everything up on the machine I`m afraid I`d probably make your problem worse.
However you can link to your pc/laptop or whatever and send the files there, I`ve never heard of any Windows be it 7, 8, or 10, being a problem, I`ve used XP and 7 which were fine so I would hazard a guess that yours would be ok.
I think it would be a lot easier and quicker to line everything up in a software program also, I seem to remember that there are some that are free and I`m sure a Google search will reveal those.
Sorry I could`nt give you any solid help but at least you know it can be done.
When you`ve managed to get it sorted why not upload it to this forum, people are always interested to hear new stuff.
Good luck.

T.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:56 pm 
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you could use audacity. its free and wav files work on it.

you could maybe use it to line everything up.

i use it for sequencing drum loops.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:36 pm 
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Machine type: AW2400
Can you be more specific on how they don' line up.?

Are you trying to line things up with the grid, as per the use of the pads? ( The 1600 has four pads that can be sequenced using the grid recording facility, only found on the 1600)

The tracks that you say don't line up, to what / against what were they tracked? It may be that the tracks just don't line up, if they were not played to the same bpm click, further if not played to (along with) a bed track during the tracking then there will be, as you say yourself, nuances that may not feel right together.

If you overdubbed the tracks they should in theory line up. So I'd need to know a bit more. It is possible to shift tracks in time to line things up with Edit functions and although crude, the wav form visual can be used to synchronize a count in or more probably in your case the down beat. If, as you say some of your tracks conform to the grid, then this may perhaps be doable.

All this said, transfer to a software platform may work for you too. But it is worth knowing how to do it on the machine. You can get quite good at such Editing if you do it enough. transferring files is sometimes time consuming, utilizing the Transfer Folder.

Macs words about Windows I would echo.

Check back

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:58 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 29
Machine type: AW1600
Thanks everyone for your your suggestions. Just experimenting with the track tempo edit, I was able to at least correct the tempo so the song "basically" stays within 4 beats to the measure. However, one area just briefly falls out of it then gets back on track. Also found this great article on how using a click track can steal the live out of a song.
http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/ ... rded-audio

So, does that mean it may be possible to "Finalize" the tracks on the AW the way they are without quantizing ? Also, I tried to download the AW1600 USB Drive zip file from another post, however, I get a message that there is no midi device connected even though I have the AW connected via USB to my computer.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:35 am 
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Dude

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 29
Machine type: AW1600
Byron, thank you so much. What you mentioned about "shifting" the tracks I think is what needs to be done and I do want to use the AW instead of software as you say.

"Lining up" meaning to the tempo which I mentioned I wasn't listening to a "click" as I recorded as song came to me quickly and didn't have time to engage the click to beat in sync with what I was playing. Consequently, it ran at 120 bpm. However, last night I edited the tempo by dialing it back to 98.? and it seemed to work except for one or two brief spots where it goes out of sync again and then gets back in sync.
I would like to ask if you could tell me possibly a short cut to getting familiar with Shifting the tracks. Also, I want to back up all of my unfinalized songs to my Windows 8.1 computer but the USB zip drive I found from another of your posts gave me a message pop up that "no midi device is connected," even though the AW was connected via USB midi cable. I truly appreciate you assistance.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:15 pm 
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The tempo map on the AW does nothing other than control the rate of the click (metronome) and the screen display of measures and beats. The AW does not/can not quantize tracks to synchronize to a specified beat. Software platforms, such as Logic or others, may be able to do that, but not the AW.

I perhaps misunderstood your original message. I thought you had tracks you wanted to mix together within the project (song), some tracks recorded to a click and other tracks done without the click. Your last message leads me to now believe that you instead have several projects (songs) on the go. Some to a click and some not.

The aw defaults to 120 bpm with the creation of a new song (project). If you are able to dial back the tempo to another bpm and have that song line up acceptably well, even though it was not tracked to a click, then you are a better player than me (not too high a bar if you had ever heard me play!!).

The sections that seem to fall out of the steady tempo are what they are -- out of tempo. that is not necessarily a bad thing - especially if the tempo click "sucks the life" out of the performance, as your SOS article suggests may happen.

Why do you want/need the measure count to align accurately? If you are trying to overdub percussion loops, this is not easily accomplished when the tempo varies throughout or unintentionally within a section. If there is no need to line up loops, there is really no need to worry about the tempo map.

On the other hand, when a song is faithful to a tempo, then the measure count ( sometimes with attention paid to the precision of individual beats, particularly the downbeat, on the time clock) can be utilized to move, copy/replace, delete sections, create delays etc. That is why I like to have songs align to a tempo map if Editing need be done.

As for the driver, you should be able to connect your AW to your Windows machine via the USB out on the AW to a standard USB port on the computer. Use the Utility screen to tell the AW to connect to the computer and it should happen. that is my experience. I have used XP, vista and 7 with no problems over the years. If you are trying to go out the MIDI ports that won't work. You need to utilize the transport folder and USB out on the AW. I am going to read page 209 f the manual and will get back to you later.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:44 pm 
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The driver of which you speak is not necessary for what you want to do. You are not trying to transfer MIDI messages. rather you are needing to move WAV data. Page 137 of the manual covers this. You need to learn about the Transport folder too ( look in index at WAV files to locate info pg 136- 37 , 144 . Not sure why Transport Folder would not have its own index reference but it doesn't).

It is possible to shift whole track, or sections thereof" using EDIT > Move function. This is very useful to nudge tracks, for e.g. to move a performance that was slightly behind the beat or to push a performance to be slightly ahead of the beat to create some intensity. But as said in the last message, there is no "fix" to "lock" a performance to a specified tempo via quanticization of the data.

If I am missing the mark here, let me know as I have struggled with these same issues over the years and may be able to save you lots of time as you learn the capabilities of these rugged machines. Do this via PM private message if you are bashful about asking questions in a public forum. Believe me, users here are all graduates of the school of hard knocks!! No stupid questions, as these are the ones leading to the AHA moments.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:54 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 29
Machine type: AW1600
Believe me Byron you ARE brilliant!!! I hereby dub thee Brilliant Byron!!. Absolutely and totally educational I must say. Words are insufficient and do not convey my complete appreciation. I mean I really learned something from what you said. The reason I thought I "needed to line everything up" in the first place is because out of desperation, I took my AW to a "professional" recording studio to have this one song in particular mixed and mastered and they said because it was not "lined up" to a click track they couldn't do it.

I never understood why and you're confirming what I believed all along, that it doesn't need to be unless for editing purposes, i.e., moving sections or track around etc. You're also right that I play decent time without a click and I've always hated having to record to one so I always left it alone in default at 120bpm.

Byron, there is more I want to add here but lack the time because I have a gig later and have things to get done. I mainly wanted to express my thanks and appreciation first and then if I may get back to you with further comments on all I've learned from you this morning to further solidify it in my mind; I mean what an eye opener, it's like finally having the curtain lifted on this. I'm blow away with all the folks here on this site. Blessing bestowed.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Machine type: AW2400
brs wrote:
e so I always left it alone in default at 120bpm.



The tempo setting is of absolutely no consequence in regards to the performance or subsequent processing. It is displayed as a convenience. Since music is (in most instances) metered it is very convenient to be utilized both to guide performance and to locate specific points within. ( Hence all the bar #s system#s within choir/orchestra/stageband scores )

The measure count could just as easily be used to mark/flag a recording of speech, but it would be a random process. You would not be able to predict where a speech is going or where it might/should be in the way you can with music.

120 bpm is the default because the math is convenient >>> 2 counts per second >>>> tick tock, tick tock the mouse ran up the clock >>> we were indoctrinated at a young age!!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:24 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 29
Machine type: AW1600
Thank you. Everything you've educated me on is so necessary and important to realize; and what you just mentioned re: tempo I wish I could quote verbatim to that so called recording engineer who said I needed to have a click track ON the AW recording. I am greatly relieved to know this.

If I again, am not mistaken, is it true that it is necessary to utilize the tempo map etc on the AW for tempo changes within a recording if there are any; such as a song that begins in 4/4 then incorporates a bar of 3/4 ? I would assume it would be necessary, however, what about 2/2, would that tempo change from 4/4 have to be designated as it has more to do with feel and I'm unsure as to how it would be and perhaps is the reason 2/2 is not given as an option on the AW nor any workstation eiter for that matter, that I have seen.

Once again, re: the transfer of files, right now specifically for backup purposes to my computer, without being completed, you say I do not need the USB midi driver because not using midi....what a concept. (Because of your education, I see it pays more to read and interpret the manual literally to understand it better). You mentioned all I need to do then is connect the USB cable and view the AW screen. My question is: although I hear a sound as if being acknowledged on my Windows 8.1 computer when I connect the AW USB cable, nothing appears on the computer screen neither does it when I look at the AW screen. It seems there should be some acknowledgement on the AW at least or is it the result of my using 8.1 instead of XP? Thanks Byron


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:25 am 
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Marker Magician
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The AW tempo, and the tempo map, have nothing to do with the actual data. The tempo, as set on the tempo map, set up the display and the metronome to follow the BPM you have set. the metronome can be used as a guide by which to track. It is only for monitoring purposes. In fact the clicking sound of the metronome can not actually be heard in the signal leaving the AW by the Stereo Out. You hear it in the signal of the Monitor Out though. So the metronome can guide your playing to conform to the tempo you set, as you track.

Another use of the tempo map is to note changes in tempo that the arrangement has planned. When a song is in 4/4 time, for e.g., and then switched to 3/4 time in a bridge, again for e.g., the tempo map can be set to note this. In such a case, at the specified measure, the click and the display will adjust so the player can keep time in this new groove and the display will keep accurately to the measure count. If, on the way to the bridge, you, the player, happen to drop a measure, say at a turn-around between two verses, the tempo map will still reflect how you set it up and the 3/4 time will begin one measure behind the start of the bridge >>>> you got there too early. Don't worry your pea-pickin' little heart about the tempo map.

You can also change scenes at specified measures, and you can trigger the pads too. But these are more advanced uses. The Pads are very useful, hence my asking about them earlier in the thread. But, if I were you, I would forget about them for a long time, based upon what I have gleaned from your messages. Changing scenes while using the tempo map and the Grid Recording facility ( this feature is unique to the 1600), is very tempting to try too, once you get some "legs", but it is fraught with consequences too. You are not there yet, so FORGET the tempo map for any purpose other than utilizing the metronome for tracking. If you don't track to a click you can still make a good recording. Many hold the opinion of clicks, expressed in the SOS article you referenced. This is why drums are sometimes recorded as the first "bed" track. A killer drummer like our own Razor, who contributes here, can lay down a whole song as if they are themselves a clock. Drum machines can work too, or a simple ghost track of a lined-in guitar and a scratch vocal recorded for the only purpose of laying a foundation upon which to build tracks for a mix. As long as those Ghost track keep to time, the feeling can be inserted, without fear of forgotten vocals or strumming misses. Because such tracks need not make it to the mix. If they are performed well enough to be included if so desired, all the better, but their main purpose is to provide you with an in-time rendition that allows you to turn the CLICK off as you further build the song.

When you do track to a click, the process of editing as a cut/paste operation is more easily accomplished. Also, songs sound best when the tempo is steady. If a click is sucking the life out of a tracking performance, it is perhaps because it is not reflecting a needed groove. After all it is just a CLICK click click click CLICK click click click in 4/4 or CLICK click click CLICK click click in 3/4. I sometimes set it to 1/4 to get CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK. When you do this though, the measure counter shows 4X the number of actual measures in your 4/4 song. ( Later adjust the tempo back to 4/4 and the measure count will then be accurate). But remember, the click reflecting the tempo YOU set, is completely independent of anything that is actually recorded. Whew ... long explanation!

Now for the computer ---- When you plug the AW into a windows computer it shows up as any other external device, such as a thumb drive, camera, phone, ipod etc. Go to where you can see the drives available. In XP it was called MY COMPUTER. The drive on the computer is usually partitioned and labelled C: and D: Other drives will have their own letter designate.

With the AW attached to the Computer via USB, go to the Utility screen on the AW, press the Utility button until the USB area (button) of the display is darkened and you will be prompted to say yes for a connection. When you do, the AW should show up on the Computer's screen as a new drive, with two partitions, labelled with letters as are other drives. The Transport Folder is in the second of these two. That folder is you way in and out of the AW. The AW has you put stuff in Transport via the EDIT>> Export. Imports can be made too. Make sure all AW related windows are closed before you disconnect the USB, again from the AW display.

Figure this out and i will give you the skinny on how best to save and archive projects. As with all computing, file naming and structure is important for you actually being able to find and retrieve data at a later date.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:58 am 
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Dude

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 29
Machine type: AW1600
Byron, great info and thank you. At my gig presently waiting to start. Will read more throughly tomorrow. Before leaving I read pg 137 per your request and unless I'm not comprehending, it confirms the USB MIDI Disc and driver is necessary even if not using it for midi purposes. Please let me know as my Windows 8.1 is not recognizing the AW. Thank you again.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:09 am 
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Do you mean that when you go to the "MY Computer" in windows 8 that the AW drives do not show up? They should. The midi driver is fo connecting the AW as a control surface for manipulating software platforms such as Cubase or Sonic or protools etc.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Dude

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
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Machine type: AW1600
Byron, I can't believe I'm actually listening to at least one on the tracks of my songs FROM MY COMPUTER!!!
Yes, I had to download the UPDATED USB driver from the support website and after a couple of pop ups saying "Can't install," (can't remember the actual wording), in fine print on the site, it displayed a link to the CORRECT driver for "Pro-Audio" gear. This was the one that finally worked.....what a relief!! So, ofr anyone else out there, as page 137 states: "if this is the 1st time you are using the AW with computer, you must install the USB/Midi driver even though no midi is being used." (btw, Yamaha support website says USB/MIDI for XP no longer available)

So now, I have ALL my song data backed up to my windows 8.1. However, going into the song folder created on my computer, from what I can see, only displays each individual track and the from the Audio folder but can't seem to locate the whole song intact. Is there a way to have all song tracks play together? Very grateful for this site and your help.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:26 pm 
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News to me!! I do not think I have ever installed such a driver to any machine I have linked my AW. I do have computer running 7 that has never seen the AW, in my memory. I will try it out on that machine.

Glad you got it to work and good to hear Yamaha was of service to you.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:50 pm 
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brs wrote:
So now, I have ALL my song data backed up to my windows 8.1. However, going into the song folder created on my computer, from what I can see, only displays each individual track and the from the Audio folder but can't seem to locate the whole song intact. Is there a way to have all song tracks play together? Very grateful for this site and your help.


So I assume you did a drag and drop to your HD from the AW Song Folders? Or perhaps you copied the entire song folder? Whatever, now there are a few things of which to be aware. The first is that the projects (Songs) contained within the Song 1 and Song 2 Folders are .aws files. these files have a rather simple and impenetrable structure. They are on your computer for the sole purpose of backup. They are not useful for editing from directly within. While physically possible, the file naming characteristics make it impossible to utilize these file from within the .aws folders. Within are individual wav files for each and every track, each and every time the machine makes a recording pass. they are all retained for recall via the UNDO facility. They are named with numbers, in some sort of sequence that follows the order in which they were captured, good , bad, outakes, overdubs etc. As you may have noticed they are not time stamped, so there is no way to sort by that either. >>>> .aws folders can be placed back into the Song 1 or Song 2 folders in the first layer of each partition. This will restore a project that had previously been deleted, with all the mix parameters intact.

If you want to work on a file that will be included in a mix, or if you want to get files needed to load into a software platform, they must be first exported to the Transfer Folder ( it resides in partition 2) It is accessed via the Edit >> Export function. Tracks within the Transfer Folder can be imported to the project via the TRACK button >> import.

Messing around within the project (song .aws) folder can lead to trouble if files get deleted or renamed. Best to leave them alone. There are nameing conventions too. I have found it best to leave all file names alone and place the .aws files within created folders that can themselves be named logically and can also contain a WORDPAD file with explanations, track notes etc.) When years go by it is surprising that you can't remember what track the kick drum occupied, or if there even was a kick on that project!!

Read up on the Transfer Folder!! Tracks can be exported individually, in pairs or as a batch.

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