The DijonStock Digital Home Recording Support Forum

Holy Cow, this is complex what you just said. Again, getting ready for my gig however, my off days are tomorrow, Sunday through Wed so I can get back to this and go over what you're saying Byron. I so appreciate this help. Yes, I did drag over to computer the Song Folder, (and there is only one Song folder on 8.1 unlike XP having two). Also, there is a Transport Folder and Library Folder which I dragged as I assumed they may be important. I'm kind of confused about how to "reassemble" these individual tracks to be able to hear a particular song with all tracks together and need to read again what you just said. Looking fwd however. Thanks Byron.

The drive that shows up on the Windows machine has been partitioned on the AW, so I would assume that both partitions would show a separate. the HD on the 1600 is 40 gb. Each partition is therefore about 20 gb on all the machines I have linked to.

In any case there should be two Song Folders. do you have two Song Folders 1&2 as well as the Transport?

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Byron

Not that I recall, only the three I mentioned: song folder, library and transport folders. . I will verify in the moring.

Well, for some reason, the AW does not show up in "My Computer" this morning. I wanted to verify if there are one or two Song Folders as you were asking. I verified that the Yamaha USB/midi Driver is still showing in my list of programs so it shouldn't have to be reinstalled. So, I don't understand why the driver is not showing up so I can open it.

Scratch that last post....I found out what I was doing wrong, the driver is there.

So .. how many song folders are there?

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Byron

Ok, after examining the "Folder" situation, I am not seeing two Song folders however, and this didn't occur yesterday, h=there are two AW 1600 Drives showing in "My Computer." At first I thought this is because I have two AW 1600's and the one that is numbered AW (1) was the AW I transferred files from yesterday and the on numbered AW (2) is the AW I have connected to transfer songs from today. However, that is not the case; instead, each one shows 17.1 GB left to record with which is close to your 20 GB you mentioned yesterday Byron, meaning that this is Windows 8.1 version of showing the two Song folders you say I should be seeing. Am I right or am I right?

Just realized I had some typo's in my previous post. Were you able to understand what I was explaining?

Yes, each 1600 has a 40 gb HD that has been partitioned into two 20 gb sections. the Transport folder is always in the second of these. (ie. if they are labelled F: and G: in your "My Computer" display, the Transport will be In G: . each computer assigns a letter, based upon what other peripherals are associated with the your machine). they were both there yesterday, you just misinterpreted what you were looking at. Your other 1600 will have two partitions as well.

.aws files are accessible for seeing the wavs contained therein, but as I outlined in my previous message they are not decipherable, for the reasons i stated.

.aws files can be used to restore projects previously deleted from the machine. simply copy a .aws folder back into a Song Folder, as found on the partitions, and they should restore to the Song List on the AW 1600. It matters not in which of the 2 you place it. (ie. if you originally archived it from Song Folder 1 you can successfully restore it to Song Folder 2)

As for listening to your project on the computer, there is no way to play back all your tracks at once without first place them into a multi track softeware platform. Oscar suggested Audacity, which is a good suggestion. Free. Search via Google. Individual tracks however can be auditioned by double clicking upon an icon and having Windows Media Player ( or your default player) play them back.

As I said, become familiar with the Transport Folder. For e.g., if you want to archive a mix you have made, Export the ST. Track, (virtual) #? to the Transport folder and then link to your Windows> open the Transport > copy target mix to a folder you create. You might call it Finished Mixes. Up to you how you create your archive fine name structure.

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Byron

Great info Byron. I will be referring to all of your posts to apply it to situations as I get to them. Probably a ways off before I will be saving mixes in a Mix Folder but just great to know in advance as all of this helps me to organize an order in which to do things in my mind.

One question is: I assume the basic idea of utilizing a computer with the AW is to "backup" song files even in their uncompleted, unmixed, unfinalized form, correct? Thanks to you I have now done that. However, so far, I have chosen to not "delete" them from either of my two AW's. This is one area I need clarification because you say: ".aws files can be used to restore projects previously deleted from the machine;" I think you're saying: if you deleted them in error or if you wanted to retrieve them for whatever reason, this is how they can be restored.

Great to know I can reassemble the tracks in Audacity and hope you're ok if I have questions on Audacity.... if, I need some help.

One thing I am so impressed with discovering, completely by accident, is, for years I have been told there is NO way to isolate a particular "solo" on an old 1982 recording of one of my songs on an old Fostex 4 track cassette recorder I made with a friend of mine, great guitar player who played a great solo on a track.

Years later I revised the arrangement of that song and recorded it myself, however, without the guitar solo. Yesterday I discovered the solo all by itself by "clicking" on the "numbered" tracks that appear on my computer and now want to re-record it and incorporate it into the revised arrangement. What is the best way to accomplish this Byron , if I may ask?

If the project is still on the 1600, the solo of which you speak will be in there somewhere.

I expect you are familiar with the "virtual tracks"? V for short. When a new song is created, all 16 tracks are set to V1. "Behind" them lie 7 more virtuals that can be assigned to be the "current" track. Your solo may be on one of those virtuals. It might also be found using the Undo list, if it had previously been deleted for some reason or circumstance.

If I were you, I would first make a copy " using Song Button, I think" of your project on the AW. Give it a name -- "Same Name" 2 works well for me when i do such things. Now you are free to search that copy of the song without fear.

Also, if you have found your solo, and that is all you want from the project, the numbered file that you have "rediscovered", can be "Saved as" a new file on your
Windows machine ( right click of mouse) and then imported through the Transport Folder to a New song. this can also be accomplished more directly on the AW.

First make a copy of the project, on the AW ( as well as having the backup to which you refer ) Explore on the backup without fear.

If you can't find it, I may be able to help further with suggestions. but if it exists within the file you backedup, then it is there somewhere.

Do not wait to begin saving your mixes, especially the ones you considered "finished". When you get a mix that is listenable or needs preservation -- put that particular ST Tr, V? into the Transport Folder, Name it when given the chance, and then link to PC --> open the partition holding the TRansport and copy that named file to your "Finished Mix" folder. Mixes left in the Song (project) .aws shell tend to become lost and obscure. The whole goal of making and developing .aws projects is to make mixes for your future pleasure. Get them out of the project and gathered in folder(s) for ease of access in the future. You will be glad you did that.

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Byron

Thanks Byron.
Yes, I kept all my songs on the AW even though they are now backed up on computer so the project with the solo I want to incorporate in my updated arrangement of the same song must be on the AW.

However, I have never been able to "isolate" that particular guitar solo on the AW; it is only since I backed up to computer that I now see the individual tracks all numbered and I can just click on a number to hear what is on the track, again from the computer back up not from the AW. (btw, you said I shouldn't try to "rename" those backed up individual tracks or did you mean just not on the AW?)

I think you are saying these are the virtual tracks?

I always thought virtual tracks were tracks you could create if you ran out of regular tracks in a recording. From what I think you're saying, if I'm understanding you correctly, virtual tracks are created automatically? And, you're saying I "can" find the guitar solo on the AW by searching through these "V" tracks after I make a copy? Just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

Here's a question: Being the guitar solo is now backed up on my computer can I simply locate the solo track on computer and copy it to Audacity and then try to "mix" it into my updated arrangement that I would also copy on to Audacity instead of putting it back on the AW?

Maybe I don't understand when Audacity would come into play and I need to see the "big picture," that's probably what I'm not understanding. Appreciate you comments as always Byron. Thank you very much.

Don't mess with those names. That corrupts the file should you ever attempt to use it for restoration purposes



Not really. I agree more with what you say about virtuals in the next section. Virtual tracks are part of the AW platform. Each Track (channel) has 8 "slots" , for lack of a better word. The better word actually IS -- virtual. Each channel, or Track virtual, is used to store recorded data, " a track". They are used very conveniently to do second and third takes of vocals for e.g. The numbered files you see in the .aws files are not virtuals . They are individual wavs of every pass on every track virtual that has been used AND also every punch-in, overdub , failed count in and restart, unless it was UNDOne in the moment.



You speak of running out of track on a recording. Running out of tracks is actually when you don't have enough capacity to assign each need instrument a track of its own. 16 on the AW. The solo data for which you look may be residing on one of the virtual tracks. Read up on that in your manual . You will see how to assign virtuals and check at a glance to which virtuals data has been recorded. Solo all the possibilities in your search for that solo If it is not there, but you have heard it within the .aws file, then you can do as you say and open each file individually to locate it. tedious but doable.



As said, if you find your track. Hooray for you! What about the tempo. Is the lost solo recorded to the same tempo? If not, you will not have luck with Audacity or on the AW.
If recorded in tempo, but is simply lost, there would be hope. Is the newer arrangement completely new, to a different tempo?



Audacity is a PC computer based, Share-ware, multi track audio editing suite. FRee to down load. tracks exported from the AW, via the transport folder, can easily be loaded into this platform and mixing can be done.. You can import tracks to an AW too. Integrating (mixing) can be done on either platform. I use the AW for almost all I do. Others like to mix on a computer -based platform. I'm in a very small minority, me thinks.

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Byron

Byron, thank you.

If I may try to reply in the order you posted as well: regarding "renaming" the numbered tracks backed up on my computer; if I make yet another copy of the numbered tracks I need, is it ok to rename those as long as I don't "mess" with the original back up tracks?
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Re: "virtual tracks:" As you suggested, I read the manual section on Virtual tracks. It seems the manual is saying there are 16 "tracks" but all 8 deep, are then virtual or am I missing something?

Logically, I would think how you said it is correct: "the main track plus 7 virtual tracks." Maybe semantics here and not too important in the scheme of things.

However, what is important is that the .aws are NOT virtual but 2nd and 3rd "takes" of tracks. Before hearing this from you, as I first clicked on each one, I kind of surmised this, as some of them were obviously unusable tracks. I guess what I'm not clear on is how these takes "automatically" got recorded because in 1982 this was recorded live on a Fostex 4 track cassette recorder unless the engineer saved all of them. Anyway, I guess the AW just inherited all the tracks?

Also, the "guitar solo" I want to work with you say "resides" in one of the virtuals. I guess I just haven't learned how to bring it up on the AW but it is what I would prefer to do as I want to do as much as possible on the AW as you do, instead of trying to simultaneously learn Audacity but what ever way will facilitate my goal and to save time I would do.

I actually tried recording some of the virtuals to Audacity last night. However, using the computer microphone to record isn't good as there is other noise etc. There must be a way to import the virtual directly to Audacity.
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Re: Tempo of the updated arrangement vs the tempo of the Guitar solo.
I have thought about this as well; will the tempos match; and this is what I wanted to experiment with last night in my attempt with Audicity.

Again, couldn't get to 1st base. I actually think the tempos may be exact but the new arrangement has a different rhythmic feel however, I won't know until I hear it together; in my mind though I feel they will merge.

So when you say I can import tracks to the AW, can I import tracks to Audacity so that I can avoid the microphone? OR, how can I find the virtual of the guitar solo on AW and "import" it to my new arrangement on AW and keep all the action on AW? Truly appreciate your assistance Byron

Yes to renaming tracks you "mine" from a back up. Just don't mess with the name structure within the the backup. the AW relies on the nomenclature of its own naming system.

Yes to -- It seems the manual is saying there are 16 "tracks" but all 8 deep. --"the main track plus 7 virtual tracks."

Not really to --- "Maybe semantics here and not too important in the scheme of things." - once you know, you know, but before "you know" it is confusing!! Do "you know" what i mean?

AS to Tempo. Unless the two tracks were recorded to the same tempo AND share structural characteristics re: the new arrangement, you will predictably have difficulty melding them. Not saying impossible but ...

re; Importing to Audacity. Go to the task bar at the top. Click file >> Open >> the program will give you a screen from which you can navigate to the "place" on your PC in which the desired file resides. (perhaps on the desktop or in a file you created or in the documents section - depends where you save it) >> "Open" that WAV file and it will be placed in the Audacity "project" from which you have requested it to be opened. the WAV form will be shown as a visual.

Re importing to the AW - This is all done through the transport folder.

Re; "finding" you guitar track - I would look first within the Song (project) residing on the AW. Look at the screen that allows you assign which virtual on each track as the "current" virtual. You should see indication there as to what "virtuals" actually contain data. Assign each in turn and play back to determine what is actually there. Hopefully your missing take will be there.
If not, then go to the PC and hunt-peck the numbered files. Open them one by one till you find the one you want to utilize. >> Right click on that file's icon within the .aws backup folder >> Save AS >> name file >> choose storage location ( i use the desktop for this type of operation, but you can use the Documents folder, or create a "New" folder for the purpose) This is the file that will be imported to Audacity via the instruction outlined above -- Re importing to Audacity.

You are getting there. Once you have connected the dots you will realize it is a straightforward process. No need to involve microphones.

How big is the .aws file that is the back up on your PC?? If it is not huge you could forward it to me and I could put it on my 1600. then we could talk about specifics ??? The transfer could likely be accomplished using the "file Exchange" section of this forum.

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Byron

Incredible !! Byron,

Jumping right to Audacity for a moment because what you just

explained is a perfect example of how any gear, be it software or

otherwise, could be so much more easily understood by the lay

person; it's been a prime major complaint and pet peeve for years:

"OPEN" is what they choose to use for something so IMPORTANT:

locating files on your computer and it should be stated as such by using a

term that describes the actual function. I blame them not myself

for having to ask the question. I think they must go out of their way

intentionally to come up with terms to make something simple more

difficult.

So by you "OPEN"ING the door, and without any further

instruction, I was able to "open" my computer from Audacity, locate the

folder and import tracks from the updated arrangement, not the

guitar solo yet but, it immediately made it possible for me to combine

all the tracks and hear the song in total thanks to you Byron.

Now, getting back to your reply.

Again to clarify, in "naming tracks, as long as I "don't mess" with the

physical track but as long as I copy a "numbered" track that I've

brought over from the AW to computer, I could rename that track, correct?


Re: Tempo, I just read about something called "time stretching" for the purpose of
"fitting a track to another tempo and can't seem to find anything on the AW about it,
neither on Audacity.

However, it is a function of the Korg Kronos which I have so, here

we go again, If necessary perhaps I could "stretch the time" if I

needed to on the Guitar solo. However, I first want to try to

import it to Audicity or the AW to see if it lines up correctly.
--------------------------------------------

A "SIDEBAR: reading yesterday on

the Gearslutz.com site, happened

to read about a guy asking for help

with AW files and he said,

referring to searching through the

"numbered" tracks on AW: "there

is a function to export the timeline

as 16 individual wavs. its a simple

function on the unit itself and

takes minutes, whereas piecing

together all the "bits"(meaning

numbered tracks on AW) as you put

it would take hours, weeks, if not

YEARS to do." What is this

"function" he is describing?
--------------------------------------------
From what you're describing re:

importing to the AW, and maybe

I'm wrong but does the process

seems more difficult on AW?

I'll let you know about the guitar

solo. Thanks so much Byron.

Now you have connected the dots, think of the "Open" command as making sense , first as "opening a storage drawer" to locate material; then when you locate the wanted file think of it as "opening a computer file" for placement in the Audacity program. Just as the word "track" has multiple usages in recording, so does the word "open" in computing.

How did you get all the tracks that you imported to Audacity? Did you find them within your .aws file (ie. those number WAV files within the .aws)?

Or, did you use the EXPORT function on the AW? If not you should. That is to what the person on the other forum was referring. Hit EDIT >> Export >> the screen that appears has several parameters that need to be set, in order to Export tracks to >>> the Transfer folder!! there is track # field. spin the jog wheel to scroll through the tracks 1 - 16, then paired track, then the ST. TR, then ALL. You want ALL. Set the time parameters to 0:00 for Start and use the END marker as the Finish. I am not looking at the screen now so perhaps I am not using the exact terms, but you will figure it out.

Open the Transfer Folder on your PC, via the USB connection. There will be a folder in there with the name you assigned. In it will be all the current assignment for the 16 tracks, or just the ones you have used. These files can be copied to your PC, renamed, imported (Opened) in Audacity. You may want to import such a file back into the project after performing an editing function or processing it somehow. that is accomplished by putting the file back into the transfer folder while PCconnected. then when back in the AW press TRACK >> Import >> follow the prompts! Easy as pie.

As for time stretching, I have had not much luck in that regard, but I have only limited experience. I will be interested in how that might be tackled. Changes in Pitch and feel have been my experience.

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Byron

Yes, I located all the tracks from Audacity, "OPEN," then locating my computer file that contained the copied .aws files from AW. That seems the easiest way unless I'm wrong. However, you're saying I "should" use the export function on the AW instead which seems more detailed to accomplish.

I wonder if there is an important reason as why it should be done via the AW instead of using Audacity, pressing OPEN and locating a file? Yes, I want to know how to do it on the AW for sure but I just want to make sure there's not a chance of losing the files or something that I'm not understanding by using Audacity.

Also, because of my gig schedule, Thurs, Fri, Sat., I have to wait until my days off to further work on this project by importing the guitar solo into the other tracks I have on Audacity just to see if the tempo matches; if not, then I want to try the "time stretch" ability of the Kronos.

However, I need to find out how to import the guitar solo into Kronos to make that happen. Anything you know is of course welcome Byron. Also, if I'm not mistaken, seems I read something, a post somewhere regarding time stretching capability on the AW which would be even better if that's true but the manual has nothing that I see anyway.

You will find time and pitch functions using the EDIT button.

It is not wise to rely on finding track files in the .aws (backup of song) files. I suspect your song file is quite simple, in that it was recorded, with few retakes and no punch-ins or major edits. You will find that the .aws folder fills with numbered files, with no other identification, as you develop your projects with more experience. You will find the song files getting quite big as you incorporate more tracks and retakes (probably utilizing the virtual tiles and perhaps the punch-in capability etc. Searching for the "current" files amongst several virtuals of retakes of the same track becomes nearly impossible. which is which?

On the other hand, when you want to move your project to the computer you want only the current tracks, which you have chosen because they suit your purposes because of the performance and or technical "correctness", you send just those desirable tracks to the Transport, naming them in the process so you know what they are etc.

You can connect via USB and copy these files from the transport to your PC, so you have them as copies, separate from the AW environment. But, You can also open them directly from the Transport folder if you wish too. the advantage of saving to PC first, is that if you save your Audacity project to work upon later, you would not need to have the AW linked, to recall needed files when Audacity is reconstructing your project. The files and any mods made during the previous sessions have originated and have been saved to the PC.

Later if desired, the import function, again via the Transfort Folder, would allow you to re-enter the AW with the files you may have edited or processed in some fashion.

_________________
Byron

This is vital info. Yes, the "time and pitch functions," may work as time stretching.

Just to clarify, when you say: "it's not wise to rely on finding track files in the .aws backup of song files," you're referring to the "first or original backup" right?

However, if I make a copy of that which I brought over from the AW to Audacity, that copy is safe to use if not mistaken?

Also you say: "I suspect your song file is quite simple, in that it was recorded, with few retakes and no punch-ins or major edits."

However, some of the "old 1982" recordings, originally done on a Fostex 4 Track cassette recorder, when recorded to the AW years later, show up with .aws files numbered in the 50's or more, while others less. So, I guess what I'm not grasping here is I don't know how all of these "multiple" "track takes," etc made their way from the Fostex to the AW??