The DijonStock Digital Home Recording Support Forum

I am working on a CD project that I hope to have ready by this year's end, but need information on (hopefully) something that will fit the bill for an issue I have been plagued with.

I don't care what I do, to try and combat the matter, all of my mastered songs fall really short of the output that is received from the radio - or commercial CD's. I just can't seem to get the output of my songs near what they should be. I was wondering if there was some type of software which would give a visual representation (spectrogram?) of proper audio levels for radio-ready productions.

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Blessings,

Nathan
http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?feature=mhum

Hi Nathan,

The key is compression. Download audacity (it's free), import a song and apply some compression. Choose a 1:2 ratio, threshold -24, soft knee, gain +12 dB, a short attack and release time (somewhere around 10 ms). You will immediately gain 12 dB of signal (except for the peaks). Play with the parameters a bit to see what fits your project and your likings.

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

I use Sound Forge on my PC to process and edit stereo tracks. It has a "statistics" screen that shows the RMS level of a song. RMS is basically the average sound level. Compression and limiting are used in mastering to raise the RMS level. However, if it's overdone, it can ruin the audio quality. Sound Forge isn't free. However, there might be some free software (Audacity?) that would show you RMS. You could compare the RMS of your songs to that of a commercial one.

However, many (including pro mastering engineers) feel that songs on the radio today are "too loud". So, I wouldn't necessarily shoot for the same RMS. I had my recent CD of roots music professionally mastered at a "reasonable level". I think the RMS of most songs was around -15dB.

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Ralph (aka The Head Hog)
"What's Time to a Hog?"
Hog Time Music Website - My Songs on Bandcamp -

Thanks - Robbie & Ralph.

You know? I also agree that the loudness levels of what is played over the radio can be a bit too much. And I should not have stated that I really wanted to equate my levels with those that emanate from the radio. However, I did want to come closer than from where I was/am. The other day, I inserted a test CD track of mine into the car's CD player, and did notice that I had to increase the volume a fair bit. I honestly didn't realize how much I had to do so, until I later switched to the radio. The sudden loudness was such that I would have jumped out of my seated position - had I not been seat-belted .

But I do appreciate the information you both have offered me, and I am sure that it will serve to help me achieve my aims.

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Blessings,

Nathan
http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?feature=mhum

What you may want to look for is a software limiter. Limiters provide a "brickwall" that can be set so that no audio sneaks past this point. If you can't find one as a shareware, speak up and someone may have a link. I will look in my files at home to see if i still have the installer for one I have used.

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Byron

It is not a matter of loudness. If it were, you could always turn up (or down) the volume knob. No, it's a matter of using the dynamic range even at softer passages. You want to gradually change the gain for louder passages.

The "too loud" experience is not a matter of too loud, it is a matter of compressing to death, resulting in passages that are not louder than others even where they should be. Using a mild (for instance 1:2) compression and a soft knee will not reveal that it was actually compressed (much like a woman using make-up correctly when you can't see that it actually was make-up) but you will achieve a 12 dB gain without trouble. A limiter will "compress to death" because passing the threshold the output will never get any louder. In a sense, limiters are "clip generators". But then again what we call limiters are not 100% limiters from a technical point of view.

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

With one of these afore mentioned programs, you have the ability to view the master stereo file .wav form. Most software programs show an outer line above and below for optimal sound level. If you load your mixdown into a program and it shows the file is very small in comparison to the two lines, then you can simply adjust the volume up say 3db. The cool thing is you can undo it if it's too much. So depending on what you're trying to do, these programs can help.

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GSMUSIC: Hey RZ, Im not no upper class american, the gear I own is what I have special to me. My car sucks, my house sucks, my nieghborhood sucks. Does yours RZ? Does it?

rz-land

Brickwall limiting is not a terrible concept, unless you push it too far, as Robbie also pointed out. Depending on the material, and the algorithms the limiter uses to deal with transients, it is quite easy to get 4 - 6 db of gain with very transparent results. This is usually enough to boost the RMS value of the track into the -15 to -14 db range, which as Ralph indicated is a good target range. Mixes straight off the AW, mixed to peak at about -4 db, are usually in the -18 RMS range.

If the AW mix seems to peak at -4 db though, there will be transients pushing higher. A good limiter will effectively deal with these brief transients but not squash the mix material. Push the limiter just a little more and you will eke out another db or two, and the mix may take on a "cohesive" quality, while still allowing the dynamic range to be "real". Push the limiter a little more, and you start to get that squashed quality. In this state the mix may sound like the dynamic range is still there, at first, but this is an illusion based on other subtle aspects of the performance, and the perception of line we all expect to experience as music rises and falls throughtout a composition. The fact that the dynamic range is not really there though is what makes some mixes competing in the "loudness" war to be fatiguing to listen to for extended periods over the short term, and further causes some of us to delete certain recordings from the playlists of music we "thought" we liked upon first listen.

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Byron

There is a software company called Blue Cat audio that offers a stereo freq analyzer that you can measure eq curves from your music and compare with commercial CD's...this won't help in the compression area but it will cetainly compare your eq...

There's also a program called Har-Ball that does the same thing, butI've never tried it and I don't think they offer a trial like Blue Cat does...

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it's funny, the older you get, the older you wanna be

This is all some really great info that's been provided here, and I am truly thankful for it.

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Blessings,

Nathan
http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?feature=mhum

Ummmm......going for +12 db of gain by way of a limiter and/or compressor might not be such a good idea.

I rarely shoot for more that +5 db of gain and typically only +3-4 db on my "mastered" mix versus my unmastered version.

IMHO....mixes fall apart and get distorted and or lose all dynamics when you get too greedy with the gain.

Just my opinion but I would go for a few db of gain via mild compression, then a few more db of gain via limiting.



Gary

I'm with you on that perspective Gary.

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Byron

You'll lose dynamics when you're to greedy with the compression. Gain has nothing to do with that.

What I was saying was that when you apply a mild compression (for instance 2:1, soft knee, low threshold) you will be able to apply a 12 dB gain. Not that you have to. This is most certainly not the type of compression that compresses to death.

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

Of course the opportunity to develop gain through the use of compression on a stereo track depends on nature of the data as it was captured in the mix. If the mixed tracks were initially under control, through good tracking practice; perhaps some mild > surgical EQ; attenuation; compression to deal with both attack and errant transients AND the mix was recorded without trying too aggresively to reach for volume during the mixdown stage, then you might get the big boosts in gain, but at the end of it all you will probably end up with a file sitting at about -14 to -15 dB (RMS value).

I am supposing some people mix to a higher average RMS value during the mix down. So the +12 gain is not so desirable in that scenario. Also the nature of the settings that were described, particularly the soft knee, will be letting transients through. What has not been mentioned is the relationship of the threshold setting to the material, as influenced by the knee setting.

Hence the utility of a brickwall limiter applied at the final spot in the processing will ensure no nasty spikes showing on the meter during playback of the final product.

Each mix will have unique needs, but with good practice at the tracking stage and careful application of processing during production, the final mix can certainly be "polished" and lifted > hopefully not squashed.

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Byron

I think if a limiter is needed to avoid spikes, the gain was set too high in the first place. The problem is that we need more dynamics than there actually is. 16 bit is, from a technical point of view, way too little. Why is that - we want to turn the volume down to avoid spikes and still have a 16 bit resolution at softer passages.

I'm not saying compression is mandatory. Again, all i'm saying is that a mild compression would more than easily solve the "can't get a decent volume" problem. Everyone does it, and many do too much (resulting in compression to death).

In the end, it comes to a loudness vs. dynamics balance. It's a matter of concession. If you want a minimum value for dynamics, you'll have a maximum value for volume. If you want a minimum value for volume, you'll have a maximum value for dynamics.

If you don't want to compress to death, the limiter is the first thing that needs to go.

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

Got to respectfully disagree about the limiters. (which is essentially a compressor with the ratio set Infiity :1 )

As long as the limiter is the last process in the chain, and the brickwall (output) is set to 0 or -0.3 (or some such high value) and you set a reasonably high threshold in relation to the intensity of the mix, a good limiter will give a gain boost comensurate with the threshold, with no audible artifacts. Used gently, a limiter is essentially a normalizer that squashes the few transients that would cause a simple gain boosting normalizing operation to be ineffective, or less effective. A single sample spiking to 0 db will stop the normalize function from boosting gain.

While a compressor with a low ratio (1.7:1 is what I use), quick attack and release, soft knee, and a high threshold provides modest opportunity for gain boost, those transients will still sneak by.

I am no big fan of heavily limited material, but have come to realize that a limiter can really tighten up a mix, without squashing it. Just be gentle. and then back it off a tad more.

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Byron

I think I see your point now, let me reread your former posts with the new insight.

We both have our way of lifting levels. They're different but serve the same purpose. I'd love to compare in practice and learn.

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

This is a most interesting discussion. It is like reading from an interview with the pros. Textbook stuff. Thanks to you contributors my mix-vision has grown sharper.

Not limiting knowledge
Bruce

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If humanity is to pass safely through its present crisis on earth, it will be because a majority of individuals are now doing their own thinking". Buckminster Fuller
and..... 'learning to like to do what we have to do.'"

Hi Nathan
I just came across this from SOS oct 2010 -mix rescue article where Paul White says: "While I would have liked to treat the overall mix with my UAD Manley Massive Passive EQ plug-in, and a fancy bus compressor, in this instance I simply inserted a Logic compressor over the whole mix, set to a VCA character, with 10ms attack time, auto release, and a low (1.2:1) ratio. With the threshold down at -27dB I was getting no more than two or three dB of gain reduction, but it was enough to glue the track together. Finally, I applied my recently-resurrected trick of using two limiters in series, using Logic’s limiter in both slots. Normally, doing this would make no sense, but Logic’s limiter has both hard and soft-knee options, with the latter softening the way in which peaks are dealt with. Setting both limiters to soft-knee, and adjusting each to trim only a couple of dB off the overall level makes the mix sound loud and punchy, but without squeezing the life out of it — which is what you’d get if you tried to take that much off with a single instance."

Bruce

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If humanity is to pass safely through its present crisis on earth, it will be because a majority of individuals are now doing their own thinking". Buckminster Fuller
and..... 'learning to like to do what we have to do.'"