The DijonStock Digital Home Recording Support Forum

*** USER REGISTRATION DISABLED! FOR ACCESS TO THE BOARD, MAIL TO registration AT dijonstock DOT com. THANK YOU ***
It is currently Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:01 pm

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 128 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:48 pm 
Offline
Marker Magician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3490
Machine type: AW2400
Been a while so I don't know how much of what i might have gleaned from a Kronos manual might still be in my brain to recall!! But, I note in your message that you are tranferring from AW to Kronos via midi cable. Is it a wav file you want to move from Aw to Kronos? My intuition says to me that a midi transfer of wav data is not possible ??? I will read AW manual and comment further later. Perhaps someone else might jump in ...

_________________
Byron


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:03 pm 
Offline
Marker Magician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3490
Machine type: AW2400
Pg 157 of AW manual describes what can be accomplished with midi. No mention of transferring wav data. so perhaps you are barking up the wrong tree. Perhaps you need to export the needed file to the AW's Transport Folder. Then to the Kronos via a copy on a thumbdrive or some other method by which the Kronos can see and import wav data.

Was this wav file created on the AW or did it originally come from the Kronos via an import? All files imported into AW projects must be either internal to the AW ( from Song project to project) or come from outside via the transport folder or from a CD. The Transport is visible in the second of the two partitions that show when the AW is connected to a computer, via USB.

Keep at it! Amazing how much we forget when we take hiatus. It will come back let's hope.

_________________
Byron


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:24 pm 
Offline
HamelnStock Survivor and Midi Guru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 2695
Location: Belgium
Favourite food: the edible kind
Machine type: AW16G
Hi B,

It's been a long time since the question and i haven't been arround but you never know.

Importing wav files on a kronos is described on page 115 of the following manual.

https://www.korg.com/tmp/support/downlo ... ileid=2010

I no longer have one but i have done it so i know it works. You need to do that in sequencer mode and i remember you need to copy them from usb into the Kronos's internal driver first.

Good luck.

@Byron. Wow, i admire how much info you gave this guy. Glad to see you're still helping out people on this forum.

_________________
In a minute it might be gone. Life is a bear in a bubble.

http://www.soundclick.com/bearinabubble


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:30 pm 
Offline
Marker Magician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3490
Machine type: AW2400
Hey there Dirk. thanks for stepping in. I gave a lot of info, but a lot is repetitive blah blah. Yors is to the point. Stay tuned and we will see if B can work through the issue. Do you still you use your Zoom H6?

_________________
Byron


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:21 pm 
Offline
HamelnStock Survivor and Midi Guru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 2695
Location: Belgium
Favourite food: the edible kind
Machine type: AW16G
Hey Byron, yes but during summervacation when the choir is in sleepmode and there are no singing lessons it too lays dormant. I recently made an entire album on the G for a friend who actually paid me for that so that’s also in use now and then.

_________________
In a minute it might be gone. Life is a bear in a bubble.

http://www.soundclick.com/bearinabubble


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:19 pm 
Offline
Sodbuster

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 54
Machine type: AW1600
Thank you all for replying. The only AW song that I converted to wav files was the one you, Byron, had me do, which was just one of my songs.
All the other songs are simply on my AW hard drive in the format they are in when originally recorded.

Years ago, they were originally created on my AW 2816, which I still own, then later, transferred to the AW 1600.
This particular song consists of 4 separate tracks. However, maybe you're right Byron, that they need to go via the Transport Folder then USB or maybe they need to be wav files before they can be transmitted correctly. According to the AW 1600 manual, Chapter 15, page 172, it simply lays out the way to connect the cables to the external synth and record the song data from the AW to the synth sequencer using the Midi Clock etc. Doesn't say anything about the Transport Folder. Also, my Kronos Manual confirms the same hook up procedure etc and simply says the "sounds," instrument choices on each track may not be he same and I would have to rematch them. However, again, I hear nothing when I play back on the Kronos, even though the AW as Master, controls the Kronos correctly and initiates the Kronos sequencer correctly. Your thoughts?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:26 pm 
Offline
HamelnStock Survivor and Midi Guru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 2695
Location: Belgium
Favourite food: the edible kind
Machine type: AW16G
As i said the kronos cannot playback the wav file as if it would be some sort of mp3 player. Check my previous post and what i pointed out in the kronos manual. You’l get there.

_________________
In a minute it might be gone. Life is a bear in a bubble.

http://www.soundclick.com/bearinabubble


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:44 pm 
Offline
Sodbuster

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 54
Machine type: AW1600
Thanks. Yes, I realize Kronos won't do the wav but, the AW song tracks are not wav files as I mentioned.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:24 am 
Offline
HamelnStock Survivor and Midi Guru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 2695
Location: Belgium
Favourite food: the edible kind
Machine type: AW16G
Hi B,

The way your Kronos is connected now is by midi. If the kronos is in sequencer mode it should synch with the AW. So if you start the AW you could connect the audio out of the Kronos to the audio in on the AW obviously and record audio. You could also use the tracks on the kronos to record midi. I’m not a 100% sure but indon’t think the AW can record midi. It will react to midi but not as an instrument. The kronos on the other hand also has audio tracks so you could use it to record audio on it’s sequencer.

_________________
In a minute it might be gone. Life is a bear in a bubble.

http://www.soundclick.com/bearinabubble


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:44 pm 
Offline
Marker Magician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3490
Machine type: AW2400
I think the files created by the AW are indeed WAV files ??? I stand to be corrected, but .... .

The Transport folder is not any kind of file converter, in my understanding. It is a folder through which those seeming randomly numbered files within an .aws Song folder can be renamed in order for them to be Exported for logical use on other platforms, and through which other WAV files, from other sources and platforms, can be inserted within AW projects ( ie they are assigned their own "seemingly random" number with in the AW project's architecture). As i have noted in this thread and in other threads, it is not allowable to rename files within an Song folder, for the purpose of easier identification. that screws up the AW's internal organizational scheme.

I will read the page you reference in the AW manual to educate myself.

_________________
Byron


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:09 pm 
Offline
Marker Magician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3490
Machine type: AW2400
Below is a quote from page 172 of AW manual. It refers to your External sequencer ( your Kronos) recording "control" moves performed on the AW, with such instruction being transmitted via the MIDI connections. Nowhere does it indicate that audio data ( the actual musical performance) will be transferred. The AW can be master or slave ( i.e. transport controller or be controlled by another device).

Transport, in any audio platform does not involve moving "stuff'" as does a transport truck on the road. Rather it is a "remote control" of the truck, telling it to stop and start, turn left or right, be louder or softer, rewind etc.

From manual: pg 172


"Here’s how you can synchronize the AW1600 and the
built-in sequencer of your workstation synth, and use the
sequencer to record/play the fader and pan operations you
perform on the AW1600."

No mention of performance data, just surface controls.

_________________
Byron


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:34 pm 
Offline
HamelnStock Survivor and Midi Guru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 2695
Location: Belgium
Favourite food: the edible kind
Machine type: AW16G
I remember i used to extract Wav files from the aws files which were backup files from the AW16G. We used aware Audio 3.0 for that. Sadly this software no longer works on the Mac. The fact that i could no longer extract wav files from AW backups to transfer is one of the reasons i moved on to daw software. The site that used to provide the Audio Aware software is taken offline so you can no longer download the software. If someone uses windows and still has the installation files they may be able to help out.

_________________
In a minute it might be gone. Life is a bear in a bubble.

http://www.soundclick.com/bearinabubble


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:07 am 
Offline
Sodbuster

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 54
Machine type: AW1600
Thanks again. In another thread post of yours, Byron, you mention "audio files being wav files." However, I guess my question is: if the AW 1600 does not transmit song data along with C.C's, via Midi to an external synth, then what good is it to simply transmit C.C's to an external synth? Maybe I'm just not aware of the benefit of that. Again, my Kronos manual makes specific comments to being able to "reconstruct" the "sounds/instruments" as they may be incorrect and need to be re matched etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:52 am 
Offline
Marker Magician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3490
Machine type: AW2400
I am no midi expert, but I do know there are 128 (0 - 127 me thinks) midi addresses (my word). Each may be assigned to call up specific tasks.

Within a sequencer these slots are assigned to sounds and can be used to call up specific sounds from within a bank of pre-programmed samples. For instance, if you hit the keys on your Kronos you can record that as a midi event on its sequencer. Now that event can be used to call up the appropriate snare sound from any bank. so your hit could recreate a Ludwig snare, or if you switch banks the same event could call up an alternate snare, such as a wood-shell snare from a different kit. this all presupposes that the slot that holds the recorded midi event is the same number ( of the 128) as the snare sound sample in the chosen bank . If not there might be some necessary realignment of a bank's assignments, as you suggest is noted in the Kronos manual. You can play the piano have it call up a Grand bank or a Honky tonk bank etc. so a performance recorded as midi can be manipulated endlessly

Or the 128 mid slots can be used to send midi events that trigger control surface (Transport) events, such as Pan, Fader Level, stop start etc. and also on off. so, from an AW that is the Master you can tell the Kronos to turn on or off tracks you have created on the Kronos. If you send the output from the Kronos via analog patches to an input on the AW, then you are able to use these sounds generated upon the Kronos withinin your mix on the AW, in real time. conversely if the the AW is slave you can control its Transport functions from the Kronos when it is set as the master. This also assumes that the assignment for each function on the slave matches the same numbered slot within the midi assignments on the Master.

See page 160 >> of the manual You will see that many of the 128 midi slots are assigned to Control Functions. The Aw is not a sequencer so it does not have ability to actually host banks of midi sound samples, but it can control or be controlled via midi for the purpose of parameter manipulation.

this is as far as i can take you on this particular aspect. I can make no claim to complete accuracy in my explanation, but i have directed you to the pages that explain all this. It will be worth your while to keep at moving on your learning curve, as this Midi knowledge is crucial to getting the most of your Kronos, in tandem with your AW.

Clear as mud eh??

_________________
Byron


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:23 pm 
Offline
HamelnStock Survivor and Midi Guru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 2695
Location: Belgium
Favourite food: the edible kind
Machine type: AW16G
Let’s shed a bit of light on the subject of midi. You have a good general idea Byron. It’s a little different though. First of all, the general idea of having CC’s transmitted from the G to an external device is to be able to use the G as a control surface for digital audio workstations. This can be a synth but is was mainly ment to allow the G’s to be used as a controller for digital mixers that run on pc’s per definition. So you could use the faders and the buttons on the G’s to change volume, panning, start, stop etc on a software running on a computer. You coulds use the same controls to control the tracks on a Kronos but since that machine has faders and buttons that can be assigned the bennefits are debatable. Midi is mainly used on the G to synchronize sequencers with each other. A sequencer may be stand alone but could also be an aprpegiator inside a synth.

The way midi works is as follows. First you have a clock signal with which you can synch. One device will be master, the others will be slaves. In midi you have channels, most devices can use 16 channels but some have more. Each channel corresponds with a track in general use but you could also have each of your devices listen to a different channel.

There are three different kinds of messages. The most complex and least used are the system exclusive messages that are different for each brand of device.

The most important ones are Program changes and controll changes. Program changes are messages containing at least a channel, a program change number and a high and a low byte. depending on the parameters these are used to say that a certain channel has to select a bank (high byte) and a program number (low byte) this way you can usually select 128 banks each holding 128 instruments. Normally each brand of instrument has it’s own numbering system for sounds and banks but all synths can be set to general midi mode in which builders of synths have agreed on what instrument is on which bank and number. Sadly these are usually the lower quality sounds. on the inside a synth usually uses a different numbering system which allows a Kronos for example to hold and address thousands of sounds.

Control changes are the same for every synth and keyboard. Control changes consist of a channel, a CC number and a value. Control change 7 for example will control the volume of a channel. So sending 127 to channel 1 with CC 7 will set that channel to it’s maximum volume. Each synth or keyboard or better each midi enabled device has a midi implementation chart in its manual that will tell which Control and program changes are recognized and which ones can be transmitted. One of the things the G can do is listen to a seqeuncer that tells him to change scenes effectively givins us a way to add automation to a track. You can record fader moves to a seqeuncer and play them back in synch with the G. These days all that is much simpler with daw software but it is still u usefull option.

The most used control change is zero, the note on and note off controls, they are also acompanied by a channel and a volume which is the velocity of that note.

The following link gives an overview of status message, control change number and values. http://fmslogo.sourceforge.net/manual/midi-table.html

Hope this sheds some light.

_________________
In a minute it might be gone. Life is a bear in a bubble.

http://www.soundclick.com/bearinabubble


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:59 pm 
Offline
Marker Magician
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:20 pm
Posts: 3490
Machine type: AW2400
Great post Dirk. I was hoping an expert would jump aboard.

I did realize that the main utility of midi on the Aw was to utilize its hardware as a control surface for software (Protools, Sonar, Logic). that is not what this user is looking to do.

So my question is regarding the accuracy of my musing that a machine such as the Kronos could be used, in real time, to integrate additional tracks/ sub mixes to an AW mixdown. I suggested patching the Kronos' analog Output to an AW INPUT, for use during mixdown, with the AW as Master and Kronos as Slave. Is that good advice, or should i perhaps delete the post in which i suggested such??

_________________
Byron


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:01 pm 
Offline
HamelnStock Survivor and Midi Guru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 2695
Location: Belgium
Favourite food: the edible kind
Machine type: AW16G
Byron wrote:
Great post Dirk. I was hoping an expert would jump aboard.

I did realize that the main utility of midi on the Aw was to utilize its hardware as a control surface for software (Protools, Sonar, Logic). that is not what this user is looking to do.

So my question is regarding the accuracy of my musing that a machine such as the Kronos could be used, in real time, to integrate additional tracks/ sub mixes to an AW mixdown. I suggested patching the Kronos' analog Output to an AW INPUT, for use during mixdown, with the AW as Master and Kronos as Slave. Is that good advice, or should i perhaps delete the post in which i suggested such??


No, you are right on the money there. If they run in synch there is no stopping us from adding tracks or as i often did, record a track from a synth to the G. The advantage being that you could for example later on copy 12 bars or so and past them behind these 12 to repeat a well played part.

_________________
In a minute it might be gone. Life is a bear in a bubble.

http://www.soundclick.com/bearinabubble


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:32 pm 
Offline
Sodbuster

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 54
Machine type: AW1600
Very helpful info from you both. I truly appreciate your time and knowledge. In the past, I have done a little Midi work and am somewhat familiar with the concept of C.C.'s, (#7 being volume etc).

Admittedly however, years have past since I've engaged in it. That said, I'm thinking, what you said Byron, regarding using two Midi Cables between the AW and Kronos may be what I'm perhaps missing.

I'm wondering about this because I have been using only one cable from AW Midi out to Kronos Midi, as the Kronos Manual describes one cable being all that's needed in order to record Note data from the AW to the Kronos sequencer.

In your post Byron, you mentioned using two cables and I'm just curious if this could be the answer as to why I'm not receiving any note data on the Kronos from the AW?

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to use the AW for any "control or manipulation" purposes of the Kronos. I'm simply trying to have the AW send the Midi Note data only, to the Kronos sequencer so I can further enhance the song tracks that were originally recorded on my AW 2816 then copied to the Aw 1600. Thank you


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:23 pm 
Offline
HamelnStock Survivor and Midi Guru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 2695
Location: Belgium
Favourite food: the edible kind
Machine type: AW16G
Hi brs,

I could be wrong but I’m practically certain the aw did not record any midi data for your songs. Did you have anything other than audio inputs connected when you recorded the song? Audio does not contain any midi information.

_________________
In a minute it might be gone. Life is a bear in a bubble.

http://www.soundclick.com/bearinabubble


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:07 am 
Offline
Sodbuster

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 54
Machine type: AW1600
Thanks Dirk. I don't believe there was any audio as vocals were not used on this song and it was originally recorded using the sounds from a Yamaha ES synthetic then transferred to AW 2818 and from there to AW 1600. So, unless you're saying digital recording of tracks using sampled instrument sounds constitutes audio, it wasn't done. I admit, my knowledge of this us quite limited. I do appreciate your assistance.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 128 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group