The DijonStock Digital Home Recording Support Forum

My song is about 3 minutes long. I've done an EDIT / DELETE on the Stereo Track from about 3.00 to 6.00 minutes, but once mixed and recorded to CD, it carries on. Do I need to clean up each individual track or set an End-Point. I'm lost.

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c'è un amore un po' per tutti sulla Cattiva Strada

Hi Stroma,

Good to see you again! It's been quite a while. I hope all is well in your world.

I think it is a marker issue. You need to change the end marker. It's probably still at around 6:00 or so.

You can change it by repeatedly pressing the song button until you get to the "point" menu. Using the arrow keys you can select the end marker's hours, minutes, seconds and thousands. Turning the jog dial will change the value.

I hope this helps.

r

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Don't judge the coffee by its cup.
The proof of the cheese is in the eating

Hi Robbie

It's good to be back.

As I told you by e-mail, My son inherited my 'Old' 16G and I've only just restarted using this 'new' one. I must sound like a newbie, but I joined DJStock in 2006. How time flies. I did set an end point, like you said, but I also went and did an Edit and selected 'All' in the tracks, did a delete on that and one or the other or both seem to have done the trick.

It would have seemed more obvious if, when you faded out a song, then selected Stop, whilst mixing down/ recording to the stereo track - that automatically became the end point! But hey nothings that simple on our beloved Yamaha.

I'm going to try posting a song (unmixed properly yet) called 'My England' Perhaps you can tell me what you think. It sounds clear on the AW but the usual MUDDY ELSEWHERE.

Hope you're well and well-stocked with Gouda for Christmas.

Stroma

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c'è un amore un po' per tutti sulla Cattiva Strada

I am sure Robbie is a forward looking man and will have the gouda situation sorted well before Christmas.

As for muddy mixes, you perhaps do not have enough bottom end from your reference monitors. If they have EQ switches or pots you should look there and make your monitors give you more. then you will need not dial up as much.

EQ can be applied to the stereo channel, during mixdown. Sometime a strategic, possibly agressive, sharp (Q10.0) notch in the low mids will remove excess "stuff" and also separate your low end from the upper, making it easier to distinguish, as you listen.

I regularly HPF the stereo track during mix-down, not intrusively, at about 45 htz. Then, in the next EQ slot, notch, as spoken of above.

Really wide (Q < 1.0), small gain (~1.0 dB) boost in the upper mids sometimes brightens a mix

Let's have a listen! we have a sharing upload utility. Some one sharper than me will post a link to that section, I hope ???

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Byron

Thanks Byron. I have done an HPF on most of the individual tracks exceeding 45HZ (I think we say HZ in the UK rather than HTZ??)

I haven't managed to work out the upload thing on this site yet, but I did post the thing to Youtube. If you search using 'My England Alice' it comes up on page 2, with a picture of a strange misty beach in Cornwall. Maybe you could put your sonic ears to it. My singing is atrocious and no processing can make up for that except for copious echo or a tune-correction thing, like they have as computer plug-ins. But I don't use a computer for Music...Just the 16G.

Thanks

PS One problem I have is that I have no monitors (only Headphones) as my son seems to have acquired those from me (willingly) too. He's a far better musician than his dad!

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c'è un amore un po' per tutti sulla Cattiva Strada

Solid advice Byron. There's someone smarter than you?

Hi mate, as you`ll probably already know it`s really hard to mix accurately with headphones even with a very expensive set it`s not ideal, but having said that I`ve heard some of my friends stuff and he uses phones and it sounds quite good.
The way to do it he say`s is to listen to mountains of tracks in the same vein as your own track, and after a while it just comes natural to know which frequencies are the offending ones, I could`nt do it personally but there you go.
A minor wide scoop out of the 200hz -250hz area is quite a good area to start at to clear some mud but you could also take a look at the frequencies in your reverb effects, in a busy mix they are a nightmare.
Good luck with what your doing.

T.

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Yes, whether the scoop in the low mids is wide and moderate or narrow and severe depends on the material. You have to try it both ways. to see what is going to work. Some time you can search for offending frequencies by sweeping a narrow, aggressive boost across the range in which the problem lies. Listen for what frequency sounds the most offensive as you sweep back and forth in the low mids. Then design your cut around that frequency. Personally, once I find a frequency, i start with a narrow, deep cut, to hear what that sounds like and get a feel in your ear for how a strident cut "slices" the mix. but as Mac suggests, then work backwards towards widening the scoop ( reducing the Q) and systematically reducing the the cut in gain. Your ear will tell you. Less is best is always to be kept in mind.

Mixing with headphones is a problem, but not insurmountable. The strategy of "learning " your delivery system is as true for headphones is as it is for reference monitors. However, Headphones will never sound like listening from the sweet spot in a near reference field and headphones are inherently easier upon which to over or under compensate, depending on the quality of the cans and also how they fit over the ears. It is easy to lose bass info if the cans are loose, or if they slip and then sit "off the ear".

As for utilizing the HPF on the stereo mix, a low number is just insurance that nothing sneaks through. I would use it, even having used HPF on the tracks. On the tracks themselves, the filter's frequency is often set much higher, depending on the instrument. Acoustic guitars are famous for muddying up a mix. If there is a bass and a Kick drum, as one possible scenario, then the HPF on an acoustic guitar accompanying track may be as high as 200+, to avoid sonic competition with the deeper instruments.

And as Mac suggests, looking at your verbs is solid advice too. there are HPF on the return channels of the effects. Perhaps you know this, but you can cursor down on the EFFECT EDIT pages, to show more controllable parameters. Filtering low end stuff so it never hits the verb works wonders sometimes. You can try narrowing the pan spread of the verb. Also, once you have the verb levels balanced, track to track, using the EFF send bus, it is perhaps time to give attention to the return control. On the G that is done with a software control. Pull it back a tad and see where that gets you. all these suggestions require iterative experimentation, of course.

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Byron

To both T Mac and Byron...Good advice.

I don't think the cans have been the problem. My son has heard the stuff and thinks the acoustic guitars are beautifully recorded. They do have some sparkle. But I think (even though I'm being very sparing with reverb on the instrumental bits - Drums, acoustic etc), that It's the reverb that is the problem.

I don't really understand signal-flow too well. How do I cut all the low end frequencies from going to the reverb (I'm using the Plate one - which I like) without cutting them on the dry signal. I think what I'm after is trying to get a more shimmery airy quality to the whole song. It all lacks openness and space, even though everything sits, each in a nice spot of their own!

Putting it simply; I don't really understand EQ, Compression or the use of effects properly. Oh well I've only been a musician for 40 years...perhaps I need more time!!! lol - I'll definitely try that 'boost sweep' technique looking for offending frequencies. Now I've been told it, it seems so logical. And a cut at that point and adjusting the Q around it sounds a very 'sound' idea. That's a really helpful technique. Ta

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c'è un amore un po' per tutti sulla Cattiva Strada

I listened on You Tube. How did you set up the echo?

Is the tune played to a click track? If so use that BPM number to calculate the delay time. (30,000/BPM = delay ms.) Even if you haven't played to a click, the song seems to be pretty even tempo throughout. If you don't know the BPM, then use a TAP utility to discover the average tempo. I use a cheep Yamaha keyboard that allows me to tap as i listen and then the keyboard sets itself to that tempo and starts a crude drum machine. It displays the BPM number and that is what i use to do the above clculation.

I choose a mono delay rather than an echo usually. There is just one delay parameter to set and delays are "shorter" than echo. If you use a Stereo delay or LCR delay there are more than one delay parameter to set. In that case, use you dicovered number on one setting and then respect the ratio between the delay parameters, as displayed in the chosen preset. ( e.g 250/375 may become 400/600 because 600 = 1.5X400).

As for auto tuning, don't be afraid to relax much of the effects you may try. If Leonard Cohen can create hits with his vocalizing, there is hope for us all. Once your delay is synched, and the track is presenting in a bit more of a "dry" envelope, then you will hear what you really sound like. The G does not have a pitch fix utility, as does the 1600. But pitch fixing is a "sliding" adjustment, and often (usually) discerned once applied. Rather than try to "pitch fix" sections of a wandering vocal, sometimes it is useful to try adjusting the pitch of the whole vocal. So then the off pitch variants will still exist, but in different places. You want to be closer to "in tune" on important notes, such as the highest notes often found in the bridge or chorus for e.g.) This approach can be used on shorter sections too, or even on single notes if opportunity presents to set the from/to points in such a way that your pitch adjustment is not obvious when applied.

I myself sing under the pitch with great consistency. My vocals sound "the same, but different" if i boost the pitch of the whole track up by only a couple of Cents. Play with that concept. It is perhaps best to do this on a copy of the original vocal track, so you can dabble, but then trash your experiments should you be making matters worse. The undo button gets a workout as you discover if this will even work for you and further discover how little is enough.

Many hours can be consumed, but you can use the experience gained to work more quickly on future tracks.

Good luck.

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Byron

Some ideas - use less verb - first dial it up to "hear" it, then back it off until you think you don't hear "quite enough" then use the Bypass button to do A/B comparisons. Unless you are going for that spacey sound, the criteria is "better", not "different".

If you are using a plate verb, it is easy to have this begin to sound "metallic" so > on the EFF EDIT screen dial down the delay times somewhat. The Early Reflections parameters on verbs have great effect. Boosting this number tends to bring the sound forward.

As suggested in an earlier post, use the EFF EDIT screens to adjust the frequency HPF and LPF filters for the EFF send signal. This is important info of which to be aware. There are also EQ adjustments for the send available on many EFF in the library, again you will find these on the cascading screens, accessed using the cursor buttons within the EFF EDIT screen .

Find the screen that allows you to adjust the return signal.

Try inserting the EFF into the signal chain of a single track. You will then have to use the screens spoken of above to adjust the "mix balance level" This defaults at 100%, as is most useful for the send/return application. When inserted to a single track, this number need be dialed back severely to a few percent, (5 - 10 % ???).

Try using reverb wash on the whole mix. Mix much drier than you probably are doing, then insert an EFF to the Stereo track, which will be applied to everything during mix-down. Again, the mix balance parameter will need to go down to just a few %. A light touch with a Flange EFF (3% mix balance???), rather than a Reverb on the mix can be interesting to try out.

Use a hall or stage verb as a wash on drums, rather than echos and delays. It is very hard to get a snare to sit in the mix when it is popping out all over the place, even when the delay is time-synched as described earlier.

With only two EFF available on the G, you may find a need to bounce or mix-down individual tracks with the desired EFF and then use that processed track back in the mix, so the EFF can be free for other applications. PM me if you would rather carry on this conversation off-line.

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Byron

LOL.....No Click Track used. No Echo used!! The vocals are simply 'double-tracked' or rather sung twice, which gives the chorus / echo sound...but also gives lots of timing mismatches. I did try cutting the second vocal during the verses and just leaving on for the choruses. I do have a Tap facility on a V-Amp 2 Amp simulator, that has effects on it, but I've never tried using a send and return signal. I prefer having everything 'In one Box' - I.E the AW16G. In Hindsight, I think I would have really appreciated having the 4 available simultaneous effects on the 2400. (Also all the acoustic guitars are multitracked, but have Chorus on, which has used up the second EFF) and EFF 1 is a touch of reverb (But mostly only on vocals). I'm wondering if I could get rid of the reverb!!!! altogether and just use a bit of echo!! Very odd! What do you think?

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c'è un amore un po' per tutti sulla Cattiva Strada

The G can send /return from the AUX outs and return through an input. There are no insert points on any individual tracks. ( The 2400 has inserts on inputs 1&2)

I use my outboard, cheapo keyboard only to provide a tempo # of BPM. this number gets logged in the tempo map on the AW. If the tune is played faithfully to that tempo,(supported by some kind of a click or rhythm) then the measure count will be "on tempo" and editing "all inthe box" becomes easy and accurate. I work almost entirely within the box, utilizing the measure count to copy/paste sections, set A/B and punch-in/out points.

As i said, i am a proponent of synching delays to tempo. I double track some vocals too, but go back and punch in correction to many of those timing mismatches. I do not often utilize the chorus EFF on an acoustic Guitar. Again I would use a synced, short, frequency-filtered delay, and perhaps then pan the delay's return away from the originating track in some fashion.

With just two eff buses there is often a need to make some sub mixes, applying EFF to Specific tracks or stems, and then utilizing the processed tracks back in the mix.

Keep us posted as to your progress.

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Byron

Thanks Byron.

There's some real meat in your latest post. I really had wondered how you dealt with a return from the AUX - I'll have to try to remember to leave a pair of tracks free to re-route stuff back to; Or from what I think you are saying, and from the little I know about mixdown, is that I could simply route the incoming returns by including them with the Inputs going to the stereo track, at mixdown. (same with external synths and stuff) - [I noted the Inputs are always automatically switched on at Mixdown, as I usually go and switch them all off. lol] - so I think I understand now. Ta

Now a bit I don't understand. I am intrigued by the idea of a 'frequency filtered delay' (and Panning) - Can you use the EQ, Comp etc buttons on an Input channel at Mixdown, the same as you can on a track (or Input when recording the source?) There is so much more to the AW than I have explored so far.

Anyway, thanks again for a great answer, and one that has got me wanting to 'go explore'

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c'è un amore un po' per tutti sulla Cattiva Strada

Yes. the full suite is available to the inputs during mixdown.

Yes, every thing gets turn on in the monitor screen when you go to mixdown. You are wise to turn off all tracks and inputs, leaving only those in use, as best practice.

If you don't know this already, you should acquainte yourself with the complete array of parameters available in the EFF EDIT screens of EFF 1&2. When the EFF Edit screen is diplayed, use the cusor keys to cascade through as many a 4 extra screens. Some EFF have fewer parameters, so fewer "extra screens" on some. On the last screen there are PAN controls. So you can pan the effect to where you want it in the stereo mix. the default is 16 L and 16 R, as many effects you want to wash over the mix. But also within those parameters you can find both HPF and LPF controls. If you were to dial up the HPF to, let's say, 1500 Hz., then most of the fundamental frequencies will not be allowed to get to the EFF (delay or verb or ...), as they are too low to get past the High Pass Filter. But you will get some verb or delay on frequencies above that #. So if a wailing lead solo is panned to the left, the high notes and the over tones that make it through the filter and run through the EFF can be panned to the right. So if they are strategically set, some "sparkle" will pop out on the right as the main track is plays. That is what I meant.

Keep at it. there is lots to discover about these machines.

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Byron

Well Thanks. That answers just so much! I know cascading through the 5 buttons with multiple presses, but 1) Didn't realise the PAN in there related to the effect itself (Which now seems pretty obvious) AND 2) That is what I think I've been looking for!! a drastic HPF used in the effects themselves - 'Sparkle'. Thank you so much Byron.. The more I get to know about the AW the more I wan't to stay 'In the Box'. My son has all my 19" rackmount stuff anyway, but I might just reclaim an Old Alesis Quadraverb and echo thing back from him (Just to experiment).

Some people, I've read, have said they don't think the AW effects are up to much, but I think they are superb quality. Love the Plate reverb.

The song I posted is the first thing I've done in many years; I'm dropping it now, but will use it to experiment with. My second hand AW had the Demo song wiped off, so I had no material to play with. Time for me to start writing some new songs

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c'è un amore un po' per tutti sulla Cattiva Strada

Stay away from the demo song. It forces a learning curve in all the wrong ways, as it resets everything using Scenes, and Newbie users are frustrated. that is why there are machines gathering dust. If you persist, as did most of the long time users here, the thing starts to make perfect sense, as with all computers, they do exactly as they are told, as long as you instruct them the right way. Keep at it. I work mostly in-the-box, but dump to computer for specific purpose on occasion. ask away, it is much easier than the "discovery" method.

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Byron

Hmm! I do vaguely remember the Demo song [which was on my first 16G] - I remember it sounded like a bunch of 'Not very Imaginative but proficient players showing off!] - Quite Horrid. The thing I like about the recorder (apart from some initial 'what the hell's!) is how simple it can be. I do 'simple' lol.

But 'discovery' was quite useful. I have had a 16G ( 8 years - but not used properly for a long time). But also I somehow found DJStock, at the same time: I found 'Bypass off' meant 'on' and how to record to CD, which I noted lots of newbies asked about.

But. if you would be so kind. Can you clarify a couple of things for me, which I think (only think) are correct:-

a) If you have EQ,Compression,EFFs etc on Input, I seem to think that the EFFs can get released so you can apply them at mixdown (I.E. The signal is still recorded dry) - just like being in a studio, where the engineer puts some reverb on a singers cans. Although I knew about releasing the Effs from the Input channels, I've only just done it for the first time, as I had a nice sound on some guitar, that I was frightened I might lose and not get back. But what about the Eq and Compression? They seem to stay the same on the Track that you've recorded to, but I'm presuming the Input signal is as is - dry? It's just that I find myself 'doing partial mixdown' as I go along. In which case the AW is idiotproof. I hope I'm not confusing you.

b) I have only got a print out of half the manual. I'm gradually printing it from the on-line PDF, but it could save a lot of time if you could explain some computer stuff to me. I've just backed-up a single song to CD, which took 3 discs; so transferring data to an external hard-drive, even if I didn't use a computer to mix and/or edit with, would be useful and make me feel safer! My simple question is 'How do you do it?

My son has 3 years of music college experience when it comes to playing around with sequencing, plug-ins and stuff so he can guide me on all that. [I go back to Steinberg 24 (Pre Cubase) - but never bothered learning that either], I also don't do MIDI. I like being a dinosaur

I really thank you for taking the time to explain things. I really am taking in everything that you have shared with me to date, and am trying it all out. Maybe the next time I post a song (First I've written in 30 years) you may hear a difference

regards

Stroma - real name is Graham BTW.

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c'è un amore un po' per tutti sulla Cattiva Strada

Thanks for sharing Graham.

As for EFF, you have to understand theat there are two modes for application. Send > (to a bus) > > Return (from a bus) >(to the stereo track). this mode is available equally to inputs and tracks. The send is controlled from the EFF Send page available on the EFF display page. The return to the stereo bus is at unity. but can be dialed up or back, via software screen (have to push a few buttons to see it). Unity for each individual dial on EFF or AUX send screen is at 3 o'clock.

The other mode is to actually insert it into the signal chain of a specific input or track. When an EFF is inserted in a chain, it is not available for utility in send/return mode. Inserted tracks usually need to be adjusted for mix balance (EFF Edit pages). 100% for send return, but often very much lower for insert. If you use the send return bus, the track you record will be dry. This is true whether the verb is dialed up to the input side or the track side. This is because the verb you hear is coming from the return bus, that has been sent to the stereo track. This is seemingly harder to reconcile when you have applied to an input, but is easier when you remember that the send is a tap. Out, but not back in (to that chain). Inserts of course are OUT and then back to from where they came. So you are right in your observation the EQ and DYN hang around, as does the Send (and AUX) level you dial up. This "hanging on", even when you switch songs, is what makes the Demo song such a pain, and the utility of scenes so useful. Clear as mud???

As far as not being able to retrieve a sound, learn about scenes. Your friend.

Are you aware of the need to run the faders up and down to grab "control" after a scene has changed a value. If you don't know what I am talking about, speak up, because that is critical to workflow should you use scenes (recommended).

I have not used a G in some time, and my machines have USB, so the archiving process is different. But as I recall, the backup can be in AW mode (your 3 discs, I presume). If and when this works the project can be restored, with all the mix parameters, and scenes you created before archive. So you can pick up from where you were ...but multi disc archives make me nervous. Such archives can only be restored to a G - not even the other AW machines.

The better option IMO is the 2816 mode available (named after the first machine in the line, I presume - the AW 2816). Push that button on a screen and see what happens. I am not sure how it happens, but I do know that the method will archive to disc wav files of all the currently recorded tracks. Not the virtuals, be aware, and no settings, just the wavs. These are not proprietary and so can go to other platforms. Also the G allow the extract of individual tracks to disc, should that be necessary. (Good way to get the Stereo track as a data file, without creating an Audio Disc.

On the Docs page of this forum there is a utility that someone wrote call AWExtract. It does similarly as 2816 mode, but with some advantage ???. You would have to ask someone who has used it. As for external HD, you have to create the data discs (not AW backups) and then put those disc into a computer with an optical reader (getting to be fewer) and transfer (copy) these to the HD or to an external HD or USB stick etc.

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Byron